just been sacked for theft in retail

bluetownbarry

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

Where did they find the rest?

Was anybody with the manager when it was counted?

Was anybody with you when it was counted?

Any CCTV where you were counting?

What is the normal procedure for money handling at the end and the start of the day?

Did you usually count up in the morning alone?

All very good questions to include in your appeal but I don't believe it will make any difference.

In employment law the burden of proof is different. It all comes down to reasonable belief. What this means is that all an employer is 'burdened' to prove is that they have conducted a reasonable investigation and that they have reasonable grounds to believe that the 'offence' occurred as a result of that investigation.

The test then is whether the dismissal falls within a band of reasonable responses from a reasonable employer . For example no reasonable employer would dismiss an employee for a first offence of coming back 10 minutes late from a dinner break. However, a reasonable employer would generally dismiss if they had grounds to believe an employee was stealing.

You get the point, the key word is 'reasonable'.


This may be the reason for your union rep's response in saying that it isn't worth persuing..

I would suggest that you immediately lodge an appeal with your employer. Being realistic, very few employers overturn a dismissal and based on what you have posted I can't see any reason they would.

This isn't however the end of the matter, (if) and when you lose your appeal, lodge an ET1 with the employment tribunal (this can be done online - if you need advice come back here).

I never pass judgement and only give advice based on what people post, however I think it would be highly advisable for you to remove the post where you identify your employer as this is a public forum that anyone can read and it wouldn't take much to tie the posts back to you. Also in other posts you mention that you have recently been discharged from a bankruptcy - would your employers be awre of this and perhaps put 2 & 2 together and get 5?

Either way, delete the post that identifies your employer.

milothewestie

bluetownbarry wrote: »

All very good questions to include in your appeal but I don't believe it will make any difference.

In employment law the burden of proof is different. It all comes down to reasonable belief. What this means is that all an employer is 'burdened' to prove is that they have conducted a reasonable investigation and that they have reasonable grounds to believe that the 'offence' occurred as a result of that investigation.

The test then is whether the dismissal falls within a band of reasonable responses from a reasonable employer . For example no reasonable employer would dismiss an employee for a first offence of coming back 10 minutes late from a dinner break. However, a reasonable employer would generally dismiss if they had grounds to believe an employee was stealing.

You get the point, the key word is 'reasonable'.


This may be the reason for your union rep's response in saying that it isn't worth persuing..

I would suggest that you immediately lodge an appeal with your employer. Being realistic, very few employers overturn a dismissal and based on what you have posted I can't see any reason they would.

This isn't however the end of the matter, (if) and when you lose your appeal, lodge an ET1 with the employment tribunal (this can be done online - if you need advice come back here).

I never pass judgement and only give advice based on what people post, however I think it would be highly advisable for you to remove the post where you identify your employer as this is a public forum that anyone can read and it wouldn't take much to tie the posts back to you. Also in other posts you mention that you have recently been discharged from a bankruptcy - would your employers be awre of this and perhaps put 2 & 2 together and get 5?

Either way, delete the post that identifies your employer.

no actually my husbaand was bankrupt but that has no relevance does it,they cant use that as a reason,were better off financially have a nice nest egg saved he has a very well paid job,they know that so they wouldnt think what you just did

milothewestie

milothewestie wrote: »

no actually my husbaand was bankrupt but that has no relevance does it,they cant use that as a reason,were better off financially have a nice nest egg saved he has a very well paid job,they know that so they wouldnt think what you just did

ok so you say reasonable,would it not of been reasonable for anyone at the shop on that night to have stolen the money,why pick on me seems very harsh and unfair why not dismiss all who had access to money

milothewestie

milothewestie wrote: »

ok so you say reasonable,would it not of been reasonable for anyone at the shop on that night to have stolen the money,why pick on me seems very harsh and unfair why not dismiss all who had access to money especially as i was by then at home

bluetownbarry

milothewestie wrote: »

ok so you say reasonable,would it not of been reasonable for anyone at the shop on that night to have stolen the money,why pick on me seems very harsh and unfair why not dismiss all who had access to money

<sigh> I'm not saying it is reasonable at all - like I said I do not pass judgement - I'm explaining to you what your position is with regards to employment law.

I don't know you and I neither care whether you stole the money or not. I was attempting to give you an insight into what the law says is a reasonable course of action for an employer to take so that you can make an informed decision on how to word your appeal (and ultimately in my opinion) word your ET1 for the inevitable tribunal.

If you really want me to give a judgement I will but I don't think that would be helpful to you.

Either way, I wish you good luck.

shaven-monkey

I may be wrong here... but aside from the cash handling proceedures not being followed to protect everyone who was contractually obliged to handle cash and make counts...
The OP brought the matter of the short count to the attention of the manager immediately upon discovery.
Is it reasonable to believe that someone would steal cash from a count they were making and then report the shortfall immediately rather than ... say correcting the count to hide their theft and leaving the next person who does the count to take the fall?

An employee who should not even be taking the count ends up accused of reporting their own apparent crime... did anyone ask them to empty their pockets? (oh look here's £180 which tallies precisely with the short...)

10 years is a long stint with one company, if you are made redundant the company has to pay redundancy. Your contract likely has a higher rate of redundancy than more recent hires.
What better way to remove a liability than to make accusations of gross misconduct / theft.
It's not relevant but does seem suspicious to me.

Jesthar

milothewestie wrote: »

milothewestie wrote: »

ok so you say reasonable,would it not of been reasonable for anyone at the shop on that night to have stolen the money,why pick on me seems very harsh and unfair why not dismiss all who had access to money especially as i was by then at home

Hey, milo

Speaking as a Union rep myself, I'm so sorry you feel let down - it's true that there are good reps and poorer ones, and it's also true that there are good employers to negotiate with and some downright abysmal ones. I'm kind of caught in the middle myself, we have mainly great reps at my place, but the company can be a - well, you get the idea... And if a company tends to be that way you can get a bit pessimistic as a rep if you're not careful.

I can't make a real judgement for you, but an appeal sounds more than reasonable. You do need to bear in mind some important points, though.

1. I know you're hurting badly about all this, but you must try to keep emotion out of any statements and meetings as much as possible and concentrate on the facts. What you think they should have done and how you feel they should have treated you differently due to your long service and loyalty won't carry any weight in an appeal. Instead, you need to focus on anything they were procedurally or legally required to do and didn't, or shouldn't have done but did.

2. With that in mind, having a copy of your ex-employers Disciplinary Policy, Cash Handling Procedure and Theft Policy (or whatever they choose to call them) is essential - your Union should either have them or be able to get them, as they should be readily available to all employees and also any recognised Union. Your main hope of a successful challenge will be if you can logically and calmly point out places where those polices have not been adhered to, i.e. to prove that the company has at some point broken it's own rules. Should you have been asked to cash up? Were the tills cashed up that night/morning in line with company procedure? Did the company correctly follow the disciplinary procedure and was everyone/everything investigated that should have been?

3. You also need to sit down and make a strict timeline of the factual events of the events. ( E.g. Finished on till at approx 1:50pm, till not cashed up. Left store at appros 2pm. Till cashed up by <manager> at 8 pm. Got into work next day at <time>. Started count approx <time>, finished approx <time>. Noted £180 discrepancy, immediately reported this to <manager>). This should include any incidents where the known 'facts' were varied, such as the initial stating of the missing amount as £800 and the subsequent revision to £180 after £620 was 'found' somewhere. The times only need to be your best guess, the flow of events is the more important aspect here, as it will help you write a good, coherent statement.

4. You should certainly assert you didn't take the money and that you were not the only one who could have. But don't give in to the temptation to make any speculations or accusations on that subject - stick to the facts.

5. You can say that your opinion you have been made a scapegoat for whatever really happened that day, and including how the accusations have made you feel after so many years of loyal service is OK, too. But remember that these are opinons and feelings, so try and keep those comments relatively brief, and as it's the facts and evidence which you need to rely on.

*hugs* Hope some of that is of use, and apologies for any typos - my bed is calling my name

Oh, and yes - it would be wise to remove the name of your employer from your earlier post.

~Jes

bluetownbarry

Just to add some more detail to my posts, In particular to Bluemonkey's posts, no employer, including retailers, have to prove anything. All they need to demonstrate is a reasonable investigation, a reasonable belief based on the investigation and finally, a reasonable decision based on this.


If this gets to an ET, the tribunal will not base any judgement on the allegation at all. They will only look at ;

• Was it a reasonable investigation?
• Did they make a resonable decision based on the investigation?
• Was the decision proportianate to the offence (i.e. dismissal for theft)

Unfortunately, a tribunal will not (&doesn't have the powers to) re-invesigate the original allegation.

I think most of the advice given will be good for an appeal, but in my experience, most employers rarely overturn a dismissal on appeal (but this shouldn't stop the OP from doing this as whatever the outcome it needs to be done if an ET is to be instigated).

Clearly there are some very poor cash handling practices going on - it would certainly be advisable to see what the company handbook says about this; but this could easily go against the OP as well as support her (depending on what it says).

blue_monkey_2

milothewestie wrote: »

so this cash office, me doing the tills was not in my job description i.e did it on good will never got paid for it,one of the managers should of done it but delegated me the job,but never paid me for the responsibility but held me responsible when something went wrong,,,,,,is that legal any ideas

You should have had training about the work you was doing in the cash office procedures though and also what to do if there was a discrepancy. I a assuming that they did not do this. They should not just let anyone do work in the cash office - for obvious reasons really.

The manager got lapse and I reckon he is stuffing you to save his own backside. How long had he been in the job?

poorclare

I would get a solicitor or go to the citizen Advice
You really need to fight this.

Good luck