Bitter sister in law

rachbc

ceridwen wrote: »

I personally wouldnt be surprised.

In those circumstances - well...I would certainly make comments back about the racism. In those circumstances I would certainly not "go neutral/invisible" - I'd go ballistic and they would be highly likely to get some comment back about our respective intelligence levels (ie it wouldnt be one that would be very flattering to THEIR level of intelligence....:D).

So going ballistic and insulting someones intelligence is ok if you disagree with them, but expecting someone to quietly raise a glass in a toast isn't?? What you seem to be saying is we should respect peoples opinion/ principles/ feelings if they are the same as yours but stand up against then and go ballistic if they aren't...."confused smiley"

spiritsfree

If you choose to let others effect and kind of dominate your life, then that is your choice. Your SIL is very selfish, tactless and rather sad, so see her for what she is and lead you own life as you choose. She obviously has no respect for people, and poor communication skills, so why let her effect you as she does. Feel sorry for her in a passive way...and move on or you may be letting her control you ?

KiKi

In a broader context, it is interesting how people respond when you make life choices that they wouldn't. I don't want kids. I love children, esp babies - the smaller the better! And actually, I'm incredibly good with children, I have a big role in a number of kids' lives, and I know I'd be an excellent (and disciplining!) mum. But I just don't want them.

And the one thing that people always say to me - without fail - is "oh, you'll change your mind". Drives me potty! Just because they want / have kids, not everyone does! I don't care if they think I'm strange, but to TELL me that I will change my mind is ridiculous!

I accept that I *might* change my mind...after all, I can't predict the future. But everyone else seems very definite about it.

KiKi

treliac

KiKi wrote: »

I accept that I *might* change my mind...after all, I can't predict the future. But everyone else seems very definite about it.

Time will tell whether you do or you don't.

Someone close to me was adamant for many years that she didn't want children. She changed her mind when it was, in fact, too late for her to have them. She went through IVF and many difficult procedures but her hopes were dashed each time.

Eventually, she and her husband were able to adopt. They went through a good deal of trauma and disappointment before their story ended happily for them.

I don't know what the moral is, because if you think you won't ever want them that's how things are, but I think there are lots of people who don't realise that their fertility might end as early as it can do.

coolcait

Just_Plain_Jane wrote: »

... I have read one or two threads recently where you have warbled ad nauseam about your principles. ....

That's interesting to know.

Which recent threads?

(BTW - more than a tad aggressive to say "you have warbled on ad nauseam about your principles"). (IMO)

Messrs_Arthur_and_Terry

Alittlesad wrote: »

I'm looking for some advice please.:o

My husband and I delightedly announced at Christmas that I am pregnant with our third child.:j
Unfortunately my husband's sister has been unbelievable in her response.
She is a single (never married) woman in her fifties who has never had children and claims to find anyone with more than 2 children to be irresponsible.
She always said that she would have a problem with us having another child and has said now that she is very disappointed in us and won't be buying presents for this child as it is just adding to the overpopulation of this country.
I do feel a bit sad for her though as she does come across as very bitter that she is alone.
I have always found her odd to be honest but I am really shocked at this and don't know how to react.

Any help would be welcome.

Is her first name Germaine?

I love these women at parties. The astonishing thing is that they can cobble together a few sentences with an IQ between idot and embecile and still manage to garner an appreciating, but similarly !!!!!! audience, usually predicated on some misandrist or environmental untruth.

Why you didn't have a comeback like "well you haven't done your maternal duty, so I'm making up for it" at hand escapes me.LOL.

For her next birthday consider a 750ml bottle of Estrogen with a straw.

coolcait

I've thought about this situation, and the issues and questions it raises, as promised.

I find, though, that I have more questions than answers.

OP, could you give us a more detailed account of the way the events of the toast unfolded? It's not clear who exactly was there (just you, your OH, FIL, MIL, SIL?) or others too. Who said what? How much do you know about your FIL's conversation with your SIL when he told her about the toast? (Or whoever it was that told her about it).

It would be helpful to know those answer before I answer the questions that have been asked about the risk of the SIL feeling excluded it the toast had been carried out in her absence. I had a number of hypothetical answers in mind, but it would obviously be simpler to address the reality.

A number of people have also expressed the view that the FIL, in his own home, had the right to do/say what he wanted. True.

However, at the same time, he was also in the role of host and father. Giving him the difficult task of not being seen to favour one guest's views and belief's (or one child's views and beliefs) over another's.

I wonder if it might be easier to grow up 'empathetic' if your parents always empathise with your views. Or you with theirs.

And, I have always instinctively and unconsciously followed what appears to be the etiquette on hearing that someone in expecting a baby. I have always said, automatically, "Congratulations!" (Except when the mother-to-be was weeping uncontrollably and asking 'What do I do?!!!" - "Congratulations" was not, IMO, the answer being looked for, and stuff the etiquette books).

Now I am wondering why - apart from those couple of occasions - I chirrup "Congratulations", like a well-programmed Pavlov's dog? Is society's pressure strong on this one, or is just that I do love babies, and every pregnancy announcement also awakens very special personal memories? I'm not sure.

I am sure, however, that I think the SIL in the scenario presented behaved very badly (as I've said before).

I also think that, in the circumstances as described to date, it was naive of the family to expect that the SIL would magically change her views because a family member's wife was expecting a third child - she had already told them how she would feel under those circumstances.

It's very difficult to find an appropriate analogy - as has been demonstrated. If you take it from the point of view of principle, then the analogy gets shot down on the basis that "we're not talking about 'x', we're talking about a baby".

Or, on the basis that there are many personal testimonies of cases where people hold very strong principles about something, but put them aside for the sake of friend or loved-one who finds themselves in that situation. I've done it myself. I feel very strongly that affairs are wrong, yet a very dear friend of mine has had more than one affair. She's still a friend, and I've been there for her when the affairs end. However, I have not, and will not, ever listened to her talk about the glorious, halcyon days when the affair(s) flourish. That's where I put my boundary.

The OP's scenario is also one of those which defies the 'let's turn it around' approach.

You could turn it around to a scenario where the OP's in-laws all shared the same beliefs as her SIL. Where the OP's husband was the odd one out in the family. And where the OP's husband was the one who all the family described as bitter, opinonated etc.

Yet, because the majority society view is that "a new baby is good news; the only possible response to the announcement of a pregnancy is 'Congratulations!'", even under those circumstances, the OP would gain sympathy from most people.

It's pretty bulletproof in that sense. One of those situations where it is very, very hard to see the other (SIL's) point of view because it is so diametrically opposed to society's 'norm'.

The closest I have come to finding an analogy was "How would I react if the mum-to-be was a drug addict or alcoholic, because I know the risks to the baby during pregnancy and when born - not to mention the risk that its life and upbringing would be pretty horrific?" and I would find it hard to say 'Congratulations' inder those circumstances.

(The other analogy - which would get a debate going on other MSE boards - would be 'What if the mum/parents was/were on benefits and having a third child?'. That one wouldn't bother me, but the SIL would, I think, have received a lot more support if that had been the scenario).

It's interesting from that point of view. From the point of view of how to deal with the SIL, I don't think there's much more to be said than:

- the OP and the family know the SIL's views, they have formed their own view of the SIl and how she behaves. It was naive to expect that she would change those views on hearing that a third baby was on the way. It was also unfair to expect her to change those views, just as it would have been unfair to expect the OP and her husband to change their views on how many children they wanted.

- it was natural for the rest of the family to want to celebrate news they were excited about

- it wasn't fair of them to want/expect/force the SIL to join in those celebrations

- it's too soon to say whether the SIL will follow through on her statement that she will not treat the new baby in the same way she treats its siblings. There are a few months still to go before that is put to the test. If she sticks to that point of view, then that's the time for the OP and her husband to set down their boundaries

- if the OP and her husband want to tell the SIL how hurt they were by her behaviour, then there's no time like the present. It might also be an opportunity to explore with her why she acted that way during the toast. It might be a way towards understanding each other better.

ceridwen

KiKi wrote: »

But I just don't want them.

And the one thing that people always say to me - without fail - is "oh, you'll change your mind". Drives me potty! Just because they want / have kids, not everyone does! I don't care if they think I'm strange, but to TELL me that I will change my mind is ridiculous!



KiKi

I always knew I would never change my mind - beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The first couple of times one gets told that phrase "You'll change your mind" you think its the person themselves saying it and they have really thought that through and wonder if they might - very possibly - know you better than you know yourself. After that you realise that - far from them being someone who really thinks things through and means it - they are just parrotting something that has become one of those stock phrases that get used precisely by those who dont want to make the effort to really see things through for themselves/don't have the faintest idea what goes on inside someone else's head and don't even want to know. They are just a person who automatically assumes that everyone else thinks and feels the same way they personally do - very lazy thinking....:cool:

The only possible good take on person no 1,001 coming out with that comment to you is to try and take it as a compliment that the person its addressed to (you these days - used to be me in the past, but I'm too old now...:)) obviously comes over as a responsible, caring person
(ie maybe they wouldnt have repeated that "parrot" phrase to me so often if I had come over as "deliberate single parent baby factory - only in it for the money"sort of person - and, 'tis true, that if I had had children then I would have made very sure they went to school fully able to do all the things children are supposed to be able to do at that age and would know their manners and simple 'riting and 'rithmetic already too and obviously looking very healthy and "cared for").

ceridwen

coolcait wrote: »

I've thought about this situation, and the issues and questions it raises, as promised.

I find, though, that I have more questions than answers.

OP, could you give us a more detailed account of the way the events of the toast unfolded? It's not clear who exactly was there (just you, your OH, FIL, MIL, SIL?) or others too. Who said what? How much do you know about your FIL's conversation with your SIL when he told her about the toast? (Or whoever it was that told her about it).

It would be helpful to know those answer before I answer the questions that have been asked about the risk of the SIL feeling excluded it the toast had been carried out in her absence. I had a number of hypothetical answers in mind, but it would obviously be simpler to address the reality.

A number of people have also expressed the view that the FIL, in his own home, had the right to do/say what he wanted. True.

However, at the same time, he was also in the role of host and father. Giving him the difficult task of not being seen to favour one guest's views and belief's (or one child's views and beliefs) over another's.

I wonder if it might be easier to grow up 'empathetic' if your parents always empathise with your views. Or you with theirs.

And, I have always instinctively and unconsciously followed what appears to be the etiquette on hearing that someone in expecting a baby. I have always said, automatically, "Congratulations!" (Except when the mother-to-be was weeping uncontrollably and asking 'What do I do?!!!" - "Congratulations" was not, IMO, the answer being looked for, and stuff the etiquette books).

Now I am wondering why - apart from those couple of occasions - I chirrup "Congratulations", like a well-programmed Pavlov's dog? Is society's pressure strong on this one, or is just that I do love babies, and every pregnancy announcement also awakens very special personal memories? I'm not sure.

I am sure, however, that I think the SIL in the scenario presented behaved very badly (as I've said before).

I also think that, in the circumstances as described to date, it was naive of the family to expect that the SIL would magically change her views because a family member's wife was expecting a third child - she had already told them how she would feel under those circumstances.

It's very difficult to find an appropriate analogy - as has been demonstrated. If you take it from the point of view of principle, then the analogy gets shot down on the basis that "we're not talking about 'x', we're talking about a baby".

Or, on the basis that there are many personal testimonies of cases where people hold very strong principles about something, but put them aside for the sake of friend or loved-one who finds themselves in that situation. I've done it myself. I feel very strongly that affairs are wrong, yet a very dear friend of mine has had more than one affair. She's still a friend, and I've been there for her when the affairs end. However, I have not, and will not, ever listened to her talk about the glorious, halcyon days when the affair(s) flourish. That's where I put my boundary.

The OP's scenario is also one of those which defies the 'let's turn it around' approach.

You could turn it around to a scenario where the OP's in-laws all shared the same beliefs as her SIL. Where the OP's husband was the odd one out in the family. And where the OP's husband was the one who all the family described as bitter, opinonated etc.

Yet, because the majority society view is that "a new baby is good news; the only possible response to the announcement of a pregnancy is 'Congratulations!'", even under those circumstances, the OP would gain sympathy from most people.

It's pretty bulletproof in that sense. One of those situations where it is very, very hard to see the other (SIL's) point of view because it is so diametrically opposed to society's 'norm'.

The closest I have come to finding an analogy was "How would I react if the mum-to-be was a drug addict or alcoholic, because I know the risks to the baby during pregnancy and when born - not to mention the risk that its life and upbringing would be pretty horrific?" and I would find it hard to say 'Congratulations' inder those circumstances.

(The other analogy - which would get a debate going on other MSE boards - would be 'What if the mum/parents was/were on benefits and having a third child?'. That one wouldn't bother me, but the SIL would, I think, have received a lot more support if that had been the scenario).

It's interesting from that point of view. From the point of view of how to deal with the SIL, I don't think there's much more to be said than:

- the OP and the family know the SIL's views, they have formed their own view of the SIl and how she behaves. It was naive to expect that she would change those views on hearing that a third baby was on the way. It was also unfair to expect her to change those views, just as it would have been unfair to expect the OP and her husband to change their views on how many children they wanted.

- it was natural for the rest of the family to want to celebrate news they were excited about

- it wasn't fair of them to want/expect/force the SIL to join in those celebrations

- it's too soon to say whether the SIL will follow through on her statement that she will not treat the new baby in the same way she treats its siblings. There are a few months still to go before that is put to the test. If she sticks to that point of view, then that's the time for the OP and her husband to set down their boundaries

- if the OP and her husband want to tell the SIL how hurt they were by her behaviour, then there's no time like the present. It might also be an opportunity to explore with her why she acted that way during the toast. It might be a way towards understanding each other better.

Another very well thought-out, well reasoned post.

Errr....are you SURE you're NOT me? I think I'll just take any further comments about you being me or vice-versa as a compliment.:D

Or - on the other hand - if you ever want a referee for some post along the lines of being a "judge" in court - I would certainly rate your abilities for it:T:D. One of the most "balanced" thinkers I've come across on MSE.:A

(I can see I havent been typing in my sleep here - because I always think twice as to whether to say "Congratulations" or no when someone announces a pregnancy. If I decide it doesnt feel appropriate - for whatever reason - I just say absolutely nothing and put on "neutral face mode").

Hmmm...I've never been in the position of someone announcing an UNwanted pregnancy to me - though I would certainly have known/come out with the appropriate response there. I HAVE found (which would surprise those on here who clearly dislike me..) that I was the first person to receive the "I'm pregnant" announcement from someone who had been absolutely desperate for years to conceive and hadnt told the World at large she was and duly did a genuine big Cheshire cat grin and very pleased to give her congratulations for that. I can't be that bad - as she had deliberately decided to tell me first....because she said "You KNEW how I felt".

tangojulie

coolcait wrote: »

From the point of view of how to deal with the SIL, I don't think there's much more to be said than:

- the OP and the family know the SIL's views, they have formed their own view of the SIl and how she behaves. It was naive to expect that she would change those views on hearing that a third baby was on the way. It was also unfair to expect her to change those views, just as it would have been unfair to expect the OP and her husband to change their views on how many children they wanted.

- it was natural for the rest of the family to want to celebrate news they were excited about

- it wasn't fair of them to want/expect/force the SIL to join in those celebrations

- it's too soon to say whether the SIL will follow through on her statement that she will not treat the new baby in the same way she treats its siblings. There are a few months still to go before that is put to the test. If she sticks to that point of view, then that's the time for the OP and her husband to set down their boundaries

- if the OP and her husband want to tell the SIL how hurt they were by her behaviour, then there's no time like the present. It might also be an opportunity to explore with her why she acted that way during the toast. It might be a way towards understanding each other better.

Very well said coolcait