Bitter sister in law

melancholly

i was thinking about this last night - even if the SIL has such strong views on this, like some others might with racism - even if i can't fully understand that opinion, that she felt she had to say something, i do still find it very odd that she is choosing to take out her frustration over the situation on an unborn child. it is, to me, a very strange first reaction (and since she knew in advance, it's actually a considered reaction, making it even more strange).

perhaps if she had said she couldn't condone their behaviour and wouldn't ever speak to the parents again it might make more sense. so i'm still confused about the way that she acted and inclined to think she was just making a show of her opinions.

KiKi

treliac wrote: »

Eventually, she and her husband were able to adopt. They went through a good deal of trauma and disappointment before their story ended happily for them.

Which is why although I'm damn sure I don't ever want kids, I don't utterly discount it, because people change through life and I accept there remains a remote possibility I will feel differently. (But it is remote!)

I just hate that everyone else - and I mean everyone - TELLS me that I WILL feel differently, just because they have kids. I wish the conversation would go:

"Do you plan on having kids?"
"No."
"Oh, right."

rather than...

"Do you plan on having kids?"
"No."
"Oh, you'll change your mind, you'll see. Everyone does."

It sets up a sense of expectation which is very unfair! Thankfully I'm not someone who is too bothered by what others think so I mostly ignore it and don't even get into the conversation now!

KiKi

Just_Plain_Jane

coolcait wrote: »

Which recent threads?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2928628

For a start there was this one, where ceridwen suggested that another poster may be turned down for a job / refused rental accomodation because she had committed the grand theft of... re-using an unfranked stamp.

However, if you want to argue the toss about that issue as well, it's probably best done on the other thread.

tasha-debt

This has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in a very long time. I very much like MSE (the family’s board) as it always makes me look at topics from other peoples points of view. I don't always agree but I like to understand why other people think in a certain way. I know I want two children one day but I also would like to, once my children are older look into fostering/adopting.

I also agree it is very immature to not respect people for their own views on the world, no one said you have to agree and you certainly don’t need to throw childish comments at people. I have experienced people not agreeing with my choices before (black partner, im white) and I was even told once that the person hoped I would not have a child with this man as it would mean one more mixed race child in this world. I admit I found it very hard to not smack this person!!!!!! But instead I said that’s your opinion not mine so I don’t you dare to be so rude to comment on my life and my future choices. You can voice your views without it being rude and personal to another person. Voice them in facts.

For the record I think its a parents responsibility to only have the number of children that they can emotionally and financially support, hence why we have non yet, need to clear my debt before we have our first.

OP - In this instance its fair that your SIL has her own opinion, that’s her right, and its also fair your opinion differs from hers, again your right but if her father pre-warned her about the toast why would she just not have sat their quietly or quietly left the room. Why did she feel the need to ruin a moment for her family? You are fully entitled to celebrate and by fore warning her she had the opportunity to not join in. I would probably just leave the subject alone, be the bigger person in this situation. If she does say/act in a way that upsets you again just tell her that her actions/words upset you and then walk away (that’s what we teach my Nephew just walk a way and don't retaliate).

P.S Congratulations on your pregnancy, I hope everything goes well.

*Robin*

I'm amazed this thread is still going.

You know what would have freaked me out during the occasion that upset the OP? That FIL was tempting fate by toasting Bump. If that had happened to me when I was newly pregnant I don't know what I'd have said - probably I'd just have fled in tears!
Ok maybe I am sensitive because of events in my own life, but I feel very strongly that the time to toast the new baby would be when Mum and Baby are safe at home and healthy after an uneventful pregnancy and delivery.

I can quite understand SIL was completely thrown by her Dad ignoring her strongly held views, although her comment was tactless to say the least. If she is an undiagnosed Aspie - which does seem possible given what OP has told us - then her remark has some logic but is more likely to have been a shocked 'throwaway comment' as a response to her Dad's thoughtlessness than an attack on the life to be.

In OP's position I really would try and ignore it for now. Wait and see what happens after Babe arrives. Perhaps get her H to suggest to his sister that they do not expect her to spend more money than she can afford on any of the children, just to divide her budget into three rather than two - or don't give any gifts. If she is an Aspie, she is unlikely to realise that her logic has been taken so badly, so this conversation with her brother would help her to realise how upset OP has been by her remark.

My H is very similar to OP's SIL. He never means to give offence, but often simply cannot visualise how an NT person will react to what he considers is perfectly logical.

BigBlackcat

It's interesting from that point of view. From the point of view of how to deal with the SIL, I don't think there's much more to be said than:

- the OP and the family know the SIL's views, they have formed their own view of the SIl and how she behaves. It was naive to expect that she would change those views on hearing that a third baby was on the way. It was also unfair to expect her to change those views, just as it would have been unfair to expect the OP and her husband to change their views on how many children they wanted. I really don't think anyone expected SIL to change her views. As an adult, it is expected that you behave appropriately to suit the occasion. SIL's views are valid. To HER. This does not give her a Carte Blanche to act inappropriately. Frankly her behaviour screams of someone wanting attention, negative or otherwise.

- it was natural for the rest of the family to want to celebrate news they were excited about Yes, that is natural.

- it wasn't fair of them to want/expect/force the SIL to join in those celebrations Oh come on! She knew that news of the pregnancy would be brought up! She has used it as an excuse to draw attention on herself.

- it's too soon to say whether the SIL will follow through on her statement that she will not treat the new baby in the same way she treats its siblings. There are a few months still to go before that is put to the test. If she sticks to that point of view, then that's the time for the OP and her husband to set down their boundaries
I wouldn't give her the opportunity...

- if the OP and her husband want to tell the SIL how hurt they were by her behaviour, then there's no time like the present. It might also be an opportunity to explore with her why she acted that way during the toast. It might be a way towards understanding each other better.[/QUOTE] OP has done NOTHING wrong. She has no explaining to do. Nothing to discuss. Is SIL feels that she owes OP an apology, then that's a different story.

ceridwen

tasha-debt wrote: »

This has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in a very long time. I very much like MSE (the family’s board) as it always makes me look at topics from other peoples points of view. I don't always agree but I like to understand why other people think in a certain way. I know I want two children one day but I also would like to, once my children are older look into fostering/adopting.

Well - I'll echo the point about reading other viewpoints. It does seem to me that the Families Board (at last) is getting more "open" to other viewpoints besides the only one that EVER seemed to come in any thread for quite some time - almost like "Other viewpoints do not enter in - here be Dragons":rotfl:

So - on this tack - and noticing the number of people posting on this thread who have encountered racism on marrying someone from a different race. I think we could have a very instructive thread started by someone (could be anyone in this position) on how they've dealt with the racism they've experienced over the years:
- have they gone ballistic at the people concerned?
- have they just ignored all looks and comments?
- have they worked exactly what comments to make back for the best?
- etc

(My personal interest being that I think useful lessons could be learned as to how to deal with looks/comments in other more "minority" situations/with what are currently considered to be "minority" viewpoints).

jackieglasgow

That would really be a thread for DT Ceridwen. Post are getting moved from here all the time because they don't contain moneysaving detail, I think the only reason this one has been left so long is because of the mention of buying gifts

coolcait

BigBlackcat wrote: »

It's interesting from that point of view. From the point of view of how to deal with the SIL, I don't think there's much more to be said than:

- the OP and the family know the SIL's views, they have formed their own view of the SIl and how she behaves. It was naive to expect that she would change those views on hearing that a third baby was on the way. It was also unfair to expect her to change those views, just as it would have been unfair to expect the OP and her husband to change their views on how many children they wanted. I really don't think anyone expected SIL to change her views. As an adult, it is expected that you behave appropriately to suit the occasion. SIL's views are valid. To HER. This does not give her a Carte Blanche to act inappropriately. Frankly her behaviour screams of someone wanting attention, negative or otherwise.

- it was natural for the rest of the family to want to celebrate news they were excited about Yes, that is natural.

- it wasn't fair of them to want/expect/force the SIL to join in those celebrations Oh come on! She knew that news of the pregnancy would be brought up! She has used it as an excuse to draw attention on herself.

- it's too soon to say whether the SIL will follow through on her statement that she will not treat the new baby in the same way she treats its siblings. There are a few months still to go before that is put to the test. If she sticks to that point of view, then that's the time for the OP and her husband to set down their boundaries
I wouldn't give her the opportunity...

- if the OP and her husband want to tell the SIL how hurt they were by her behaviour, then there's no time like the present. It might also be an opportunity to explore with her why she acted that way during the toast. It might be a way towards understanding each other better.

OP has done NOTHING wrong. She has no explaining to do. Nothing to discuss. Is SIL feels that she owes OP an apology, then that's a different story.[/QUOTE]

Your views are different from mine. Each of us has a right to those views, each of us believes that our views are valid. The same goes for every genuine poster on this thread, and everyone in the real world who holds a view on anything.

Just like the scenario set out by the OP:

The SIL's views are different from those of her brother, her family and the OP. All of them have a right to their views, and all of them believe their views are valid.

The OP and her husband based their decision to have a third child on reasons which are personal to them, which are valid to them, and don't have to be shared with anyone or approved by anyone else. Because their views are so much more part of the social 'norm', they wouldn't really have to explain why they took that decision anyway - most people will 'fill in the blanks' based on their own experiences, or the experiences of family and friends!

Because the SIL's views aren't part of the social 'norm' it's harder for people to 'filling the blanks' based on their own experiences.

Her views don't appear to have been recognised or respected by her family. They certainly haven't been given equal importance as those of her brother and his wife. None of that excuses her behaviour, but it does, in my view, mean that it's not totally clear-cut that her actions are simply due to her being 'bitter' or 'attention seeking' or any of the other descriptions which have been used.

The SIL's views on people having more than two children appear to be based on opinions which she has formed through learning about theories around overpopulation, and the impact which that can/will have on the environment, and the long-term effects on all of us.

Given that her beliefs aren't 'just' based on moral or ethical gounds - but also have a practical level in terms of seeing that overpopulation has an impact on mankind in general, and therefore on her as an individual - I can appreciate that she would see it as 'irresponsible' for people to have more than two children.

So I can see why it would be more difficult for her to simply 'smile politely and say nothing' against that background. It reinforces my view that it was, at best, naive and tactless of the family to have that toast in her presence.

At worst, it showed a shocking lack of empathy and understanding for her position, and a total disregard for her views. It could come acros as effectively saying "We don't care about your views, we don't care about your beliefs, we don't care about your feelings". In addition, it could also have sent the message that "your brother is more important to us than you are".

Then, of course, her behaviour effectively said right back to them: "I don't care about your views, I don't care about your beliefs, I don't care about your feelings". And "I'm more important than my brother is".

I find it a very sad situation all round. There are two very different world views in the family, which doesn't make it easy to deal with these situations.

As for what to do next, having thought about it a bit further, and tried to put myself into the SIL's position a bit more, I've changed my mind about the advice I would give.

I would suggest that the OP and her husband do speak to the SIL sooner rather than later. Have a discussion about what happened at the toast, and allow both sides to express their feelings of hurt, disappointment etc (if they both feel ready to do the emotional side of it).

But definitely address the practical issue which has arisen in terms of the SIL stating that she won't be buying presents for the third child.

Part of the original problem, IMO, came from the fact that no one in the family seem to demonstrate any respect for the SIL and her views. There doesn't seem to have been any recognition of the fact that she was in a difficult position. This more subtle disrespect has gone unnoticed in the face of the SIL's overtly disrespectful behaviour.

Maybe the OP/her husband should at least tell the SIL that they recognise that this must be a difficult position for her, and will respect her choices in the way she deals with it. If that's true. If it's not true, and they can't bring themselves to say any of this, then that may help them gain some more insight into the way the SIL might have felt.

However, they can be quite firm about the fact that, as parents, they will treat all of their children equally, and expect that others will do the same. They can also let the SIL know that they would never expect her to buy presents for any of their children, and are always delighed and grateful if she does buy them something. But, they couldn't accept that two of the children would get a gift while the other one doesn't.

Some way further up the thread, someone made the suggestion that - if the SIL did want to continue giving presents - she could opt for giving the children, or the family, a "virtual gift". That strikes me as an excellent idea, and may be a way to find a compromise between two very different points of view within the family.

Plans_all_plans

Coolcait stated:

Given that her beliefs aren't 'just' based on moral or ethical gounds - but also have a practical level in terms of seeing that overpopulation has an impact on mankind in general, and therefore on her as an individual - I can appreciate that she would see it as 'irresponsible' for people to have more than two children.


Yes but you are still missing the point that there are PLENTY of us who have opinions on things that we believe to affect mankind as a whole, who wouldn't dream of acting in the manner of the SIL.

Regardless of this, the SIL is in her 50s. I fail to see how a woman of this age and experience could feel it necessary to throw her toys out of the pram so spectacularly (at that precise moment) rather than taking her father to one side later and saying she felt hurt.

It is little wonder to me that this lady is alone, she appears never to have got past the teenage stage in terms of learning appropropriate behaviour.