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Bitter sister in law

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  • ceridwen wrote: »
    Can I point out that I would personally do the conventional "congratulations", etc on child 1 and 2 that anyone had - indeed I have done.

    BUT...well howzabout I give another analogous situation then? Okay...suppose someone lived in the Southern states of America a couple of hundred years back? Now - bear in mind that at that point in history that many people in those Southern States had slaves and/or thought it was okay to have slaves.

    In those circumstances - someone who was a bit "ahead of their time" and didnt agree with this would be in a very very awkward situation if someone who was a friend of theirs announced right in front of them that that is precisely what they proposed to do. You would sit there and think "They're a fine person in a lot of other respects...I want to keep a positive relationship with them in a lot of other respects BUT BUT BUT.....". So - just what do you do in those circumstances then? The choices would be:
    - Tell them that was just fine END OF
    - Tell them that was just fine but continue (behind their backs) to help slaves escape
    - Say absolutely nothing about the subject to them at all and help the slaves escape behind their back
    - Condemn them and help those slaves escape.

    It really is an analogous situation to those of us who mentally put ourselves forward "into the future" and wonder how people will think/act in a future society about something.

    In the analogous situation above - I would have probably chosen option 3 - ie say absolutely nothing to them and help the slaves escape behind their back.

    In this particular instance though - ie the late 20th century/early 21st century dilemma of having a child no. 3 or beyond - then what is the option 3 in those circumstances?

    Hence - why I think this must not be "flaunted" in front of SIL - to make it possible for her to maintain ties to the family, whilst not going against deeply-held beliefs. So - I think FIL was being "hugely insensitive" (I could phrase this a lot more strongly....) to do this to his own daughter...How could he treat his own daughter this way? To me - that smacks of trying to force her to conform to conventional opinion regardless and it would have made me very very angry indeed with him in SIL's position....

    I think that's another poor analogy. I cannot get my head round your drawing parallel lines between having a baby and slavery. :eek:
    My father in law is a lovely man who does respect his daughter's opinion but why the hell should he indulge her rude behaviour?
    You must see that your opinion is in the minority here. I think that my SIL is the insensitive one not my FIL.

    My husband is away with work but I will discuss it at length with him though my gut instinct is that she is best just ignored and if she dares to make another snide aside, I will have to speak my mind.
  • k.o.d
    k.o.d Posts: 8,607 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 3 January 2011 at 8:35PM
    ceridwen wrote: »
    I honestly don't think SIL is being "nasty" about this. I really do think that she is in a dilemma here - as to how to relate to the person concerned (ie O.P.) WITHOUT seeming in any way to "condone" something that she doesnt agree with.

    An analogous situation might be, for instance, where a loving parent has had a child who has grown to adulthood and then turned into a druggie. That parent is STILL a loving parent and still loves their child BUT cannot condone the drugtaking. I am just SO glad I am not in that situation either - because I would really struggle (as I'm sure parents in that situation must...) with the dilemma of "How the heck do I make it plain to my druggie child that I still love them - BUT I do NOT approve of the drugtaking?". That is another awkward situation that a lot of people must wonder how on earth to deal with.....as in you want the child to feel cared for/you still want a relationship with them - but then there's that drugtaking to consider...

    It IS a very very difficult situation for those of us who know/care about overpopulation as to how the heck to cope when someone close to us announces they are about to have child no. 3, 4, whatever....

    EDIT: It really is a subject that needs covering in modern-day etiquette books. I DO have several modern-day ones and they simply do not have ANYTHING whatsoever about what to do in these circumstances. They say how to deal with people having partners instead of spouses (including if they are the same sex - instead of the opposite sex), they say what to do about answering mobile phones whilst in company. BUT the authors simply have not given any indication whatsoever as to what to do in these circumstances...
    ceridwen wrote: »
    I do understand what you are saying. I am in the awkward situation where a friend has 4 children. They arent a close friend - but someone I personally like and can see has a lot of caring and good points and I really struggle with this issue there. Thankfully - they are just a friend and not a close relative. They dont raise the issue. I dont raise the issue. Nothing is said by either of us.

    The thing is though - that its not "flaunted in my face". They know my views. I know theirs. There is a sort of unspoken agreement that neither of us says anything on this subject.

    In this case though the SIL has been put in the awkward situation where there is simply no way she cant say SOMETHING one way or the other - ie the "toast to the 3rd child" that happened in her presence shortly after the pregnancy has been announced all round. With that - she has been put in a very very awkward situation and had no option whatsoever but to either take "the conventional route" and join in the "toast" or say why she hadnt. I cant honestly see that there was a third way in those circumstances....
    So - I DO feel very sorry for SIL. What an awkward situation to be put in and the person who proposed the "toast" like that really really does NOT have any empathy whatsoever with anyone who has a different viewpoint to their own...
    ceridwen wrote: »
    Can I point out that I would personally do the conventional "congratulations", etc on child 1 and 2 that anyone had - indeed I have done.

    BUT...well howzabout I give another analogous situation then? Okay...suppose someone lived in the Southern states of America a couple of hundred years back? Now - bear in mind that at that point in history that many people in those Southern States had slaves and/or thought it was okay to have slaves.

    In those circumstances - someone who was a bit "ahead of their time" and didnt agree with this would be in a very very awkward situation if someone who was a friend of theirs announced right in front of them that that is precisely what they proposed to do. You would sit there and think "They're a fine person in a lot of other respects...I want to keep a positive relationship with them in a lot of other respects BUT BUT BUT.....". So - just what do you do in those circumstances then? The choices would be:
    - Tell them that was just fine END OF
    - Tell them that was just fine but continue (behind their backs) to help slaves escape
    - Say absolutely nothing about the subject to them at all and help the slaves escape behind their back
    - Condemn them and help those slaves escape.

    It really is an analogous situation to those of us who mentally put ourselves forward "into the future" and wonder how people will think/act in a future society about something.

    In the analogous situation above - I would have probably chosen option 3 - ie say absolutely nothing to them and help the slaves escape behind their back.

    In this particular instance though - ie the late 20th century/early 21st century dilemma of having a child no. 3 or beyond - then what is the option 3 in those circumstances?

    Hence - why I think this must not be "flaunted" in front of SIL - to make it possible for her to maintain ties to the family, whilst not going against deeply-held beliefs. So - I think FIL was being "hugely insensitive" (I could phrase this a lot more strongly....) to do this to his own daughter...How could he treat his own daughter this way? To me - that smacks of trying to force her to conform to conventional opinion regardless and it would have made me very very angry indeed with him in SIL's position....
    Now I know why I don't visit these boards very often?
    Etiquette books? Druggies? Slaves?

    It is nothing but bad manners and you are totally hatstand!!! Where is the rolleyes smiley when you need it?
    I would like to live in Theory, because everything works there
  • ceridwen
    ceridwen Posts: 11,547 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I don't think it's a case of trying to make her conform to conventional opinion, just a case of trying to make her be polite!

    I disagree with that.

    I do feel even sorrier for SIL now - as sometimes "being polite" DOES get confused with "sharing the same views". For her own father to try and force her publicly to congratulate someone in these circumstances is absolutely appalling and it really shocks me.

    I have parents who are very very different indeed to me in many ways - dont know if that makes me the black sheep or the white sheep of the family:rotfl:. BUT - by and large - they don't try and force me to go against deeply-held views and I dont force them to go against their (very different) deeply-held views. The vast majority of the time - both "sides" say nowt.

    If my father had done that to me though - I very much doubt I would ever speak to him again. Reason = he had just made it plain very publicly that he didnt give a damn about me and my views. Megawd - if SIL IS bitter - then its absolutely no wonder with a father who (at the very least) is so grossly insensitive to her feelings/viewpoints. I say again - poor woman.

    By saying - very publicly - "Dear son - I so applaud you for your lifestyle/views" and "Dear daughter - BLOW YOU" then I feel so very very sorry for her. If your own father takes no account of you and rubbishes your views - then who the heck else would you expect to do so?
  • shellsuit
    shellsuit Posts: 24,749 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Combo Breaker
    ceridwen wrote: »
    To which I respond - who was it that proposed this toast and why did they do it in the circumstances?

    Why bloody shouldn't they?! :mad:

    I have strong views/opinions on drug addicts and alcoholics, but I wouldn't TELL them what I think to their faces, as even though I don't like what they do/are, I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

    This isn't a woman who wants children but can't, this is just someone who just doesn't like the idea and has a strong opinion about it, but she should have kept it to herself at that moment!

    Sour old crow she is.





    I don't think it's a case of trying to make her conform to conventional opinion, just a case of trying to make her be polite!
    Tank fly boss walk jam nitty gritty...
  • skipsmum
    skipsmum Posts: 707 Forumite
    Im really surprised at some of the comments on here about 3rd and 4th children! Ceridwen, if you were my relative would you buy for mine? DS1 & 2 - mine by birth, DS3 adopted, DS 4 fostered with hope to adopt? Does DS3 get ignored because I already have 2?

    Btw I have 4 SILs, all of whom have chosen not to have or are unable to have children. I don't mind whether they buy presents for, or even acknowledge my children as long as they do the same to all 4.
    With Sparkles! :happylove And Shiny Things!
  • flower24
    flower24 Posts: 1,719 Forumite
    ceridwen wrote: »
    I disagree with that.

    I do feel even sorrier for SIL now - as sometimes "being polite" DOES get confused with "sharing the same views". For her own father to try and force her publicly to congratulate someone in these circumstances is absolutely appalling and it really shocks me.

    I have parents who are very very different indeed to me in many ways - dont know if that makes me the black sheep or the white sheep of the family:rotfl:. BUT - by and large - they don't try and force me to go against deeply-held views and I dont force them to go against their (very different) deeply-held views. The vast majority of the time - both "sides" say nowt.

    If my father had done that to me though - I very much doubt I would ever speak to him again. Reason = he had just made it plain very publicly that he didnt give a damn about me and my views. Megawd - if SIL IS bitter - then its absolutely no wonder with a father who (at the very least) is so grossly insensitive to her feelings/viewpoints. I say again - poor woman.

    By saying - very publicly - "Dear son - I so applaud you for your lifestyle/views" and "Dear daughter - BLOW YOU" then I feel so very very sorry for her. If your own father takes no account of you and rubbishes your views - then who the heck else would you expect to do so?


    Are you my auntie?! :rotfl:

    Seriously, she doesn't have to go against her views, just keep her mouth shut, there is no reason for her to be so rude. If she wants people to respect her opinions/lifestyle choices, then she should be able to do the same.
  • ceridwen wrote: »
    .

    If my father had done that to me though - I very much doubt I would ever speak to him again. Reason = he had just made it plain very publicly that he didnt give a damn about me and my views. Megawd - if SIL IS bitter - then its absolutely no wonder with a father who (at the very least) is so grossly insensitive to her feelings/viewpoints. I say again - poor woman.

    By saying - very publicly - "Dear son - I so applaud you for your lifestyle/views" and "Dear daughter - BLOW YOU" then I feel so very very sorry for her. If your own father takes no account of you and rubbishes your views - then who the heck else would you expect to do so?

    Now hang on. You don't know the man and are making him out to be an ogre for toasting his imminent grandchild????
    You couldn't meet a better man.

    I don't know you but your signature says you have a soft heart. For goodness sakes then, can't you see that my SIL should have kept her mouth shut to spare the feelings of at least five others!!!
  • ceridwen
    ceridwen Posts: 11,547 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    skipsmum wrote: »
    Im really surprised at some of the comments on here about 3rd and 4th children! Ceridwen, if you were my relative would you buy for mine? DS1 & 2 - mine by birth, DS3 adopted, DS 4 fostered with hope to adopt? Does DS3 get ignored because I already have 2?

    <puzzled smilie> Obviously yes - in those circumstances...
  • shellsuit
    shellsuit Posts: 24,749 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Combo Breaker
    Alittlesad wrote: »
    Now hang on. You don't know the man and are making him out to be an ogre for toasting his imminent grandchild????
    You couldn't meet a better man.

    I don't know you but your signature says you have a soft heart. For goodness sakes then, can't you see that my SIL should have kept her mouth shut to spare the feelings of at least five others!!!

    Ignore her and don't let her upset you.

    She's obviously got her wooden spoon out, wait for the AE's next.
    Tank fly boss walk jam nitty gritty...
  • k.o.d
    k.o.d Posts: 8,607 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Alittlesad wrote: »
    Now hang on. You don't know the man and are making him out to be an ogre for toasting his imminent grandchild????
    You couldn't meet a better man.

    I don't know you but your signature says you have a soft heart. For goodness sakes then, can't you see that my SIL should have kept her mouth shut to spare the feelings of at least five others!!!
    Soft heart to match the head ;)
    I would like to live in Theory, because everything works there
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