MSE News: Wheel clamping to be banned on private land

bigturnip

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

Private landowners need not fear the end of clamping. If a landowner has a public use car park that they want regulated and enforced or whether a private business wants to protect a car park for staff and clients use then this is possible as it can easily be achieved under current legislation if the owners liase with their local council. Section 33(4)(b) of the RTRA 1984 enables a local authority to regulate and enforce private land.

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=the+road+traffic+regulation+act+1984&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=2223862&ActiveTextDocId=2223916&filesize=3708

All that needs be done is that the landowner agrees terms with the council (similar to what they would with a PPC) and that the private land is then regulated by a traffic order. The landowner can then relax knowing that any parking contravention can be legally enforced while any motorist will know that they have access to an appeal system that includes access to an an independent adjudicator.

Such regulation on private land is very simple but not many landowners are aware of this option.

What do they do, send a traffic warden round to stand guard? Not going to work because the council won't actually enforce it, especially if lots of people suddenly apply for it. the council also has the right to refuse, so who do you go to then?

As you seem to know a bit about the laws governing this, what about locking a car in until payment for parking is received? And how does this differ from current pay to exit car parks?

bigturnip

ashleypride wrote: »

...legal extortion was never the answer.

Correct, but neither is a free for all.

TheBogsDollocks

bigturnip wrote: »

What do they do, send a traffic warden round to stand guard? Not going to work because the council won't actually enforce it, especially if lots of people suddenly apply for it. the council also has the right to refuse, so who do you go to then?

As you seem to know a bit about the laws governing this, what about locking a car in until payment for parking is received? And how does this differ from current pay to exit car parks?

It already happens in some privately owned car parks and has proved workable and successful.

Wardens don't stand guard in council car parks and there is no need to in regulated private car parks either. Wardens patrol daily just as they do normally and in addition they can respond to any phone reports of unlawful parking.

Why wouln't the council actually enforce it? If they have a service level agreement with the landowner then it is likely to be enforced to that agreed level. Adding a few extra stop off points on a wardens patrol route is not difficult to do and is of little extra cost to the council.

Yes a council can refuse to regulate a private car park but then again it can also accept to do so. Councils tend to act favourably when local business and councillors apply pressure. If local businesses want such a service and organise themselves then the local council will have to listen.

Liam asked for sensible solutions and so I suggested one. If a council rejects the idea then any landowner will have to seek other options within the peimeters of the law.

Denying a person the right to enjoy their property by blocking access is likely to be an infringement of human rights legislation. If a person parks on private land and breaches the "contract" then the landowner must claim for losses through the courts. If it happens to be on council land then the council can only serve a PCN/clamp or tow within the boundaries of any regulating legislation, commonly these days that is the TMA 2004.

bigturnip

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

It already happens in some privately owned car parks and has proved workable and successful.

Wardens don't stand guard in council car parks and there is no need to in regulated private car parks either. Wardens patrol daily just as they do normally and in addition they can respond to any phone reports of unlawful parking.

Why wouln't the council actually enforce it? If they have a service level agreement with the landowner then it is likely to be enforced to that agreed level. Adding a few extra stop off points on a wardens patrol route is not difficult to do and is of little extra cost to the council.

Yes a council can refuse to regulate a private car park but then again it can also accept to do so. Councils tend to act favourably when local business and councillors apply pressure. If local businesses want such a service and organise themselves then the local council will have to listen.

Liam asked for sensible solutions and so I suggested one. If a council rejects the idea then any landowner will have to seek other options within the peimeters of the law.

Denying a person the right to enjoy their property by blocking access is likely to be an infringement of human rights legislation. If a person parks on private land and breaches the "contract" then the landowner must claim for losses through the courts. If it happens to be on council land then the council can only serve a PCN/clamp or tow within the boundaries of any regulating legislation, commonly these days that is the TMA 2004.

The solutions may be sensible in a town or city where you have traffic wardens to do patrols, but in my small village with a train station and no traffic wardens what practical solutions are there to stop people parking on private land and going off to work on the train?

Regarding the blocking access to property, does this mean next time I am in a private car park where I am required to pay to exit, otherwise I am blocked in by the barrier, I can ask them to let me out for free because they are denying me my human rights?

taffy056

bigturnip wrote: »

The solutions may be sensible in a town or city where you have traffic wardens to do patrols, but in my small village with a train station and no traffic wardens what practical solutions are there to stop people parking on private land and going off to work on the train?

Regarding the blocking access to property, does this mean next time I am in a private car park where I am required to pay to exit, otherwise I am blocked in by the barrier, I can ask them to let me out for free because they are denying me my human rights?

Well there is a solution to most problems, you've got to find one that fits yours, a council one like above could help in a huge number of places, but if that is not for you , then posts or barriers are an aternative, or even a chain between 2 posts.

There is no 1 fits all to problem parking, there has never been such a system, clamping loses you future customers , those clamped will never come back to your business, and they will tell all that will listen that they have been clamped outside your business.

You now need to protect your spaces by being innoative, and to use it to your advantage, perhaps with a letter inside a little plastic envelope put on their screen.

But instead of a ticket, you could advertise your business, and start off with a bit humour, like I bet you thought this was a parking ticket just explain your business and then put somewhere in that letter about the needs of your business for these spaces, keep it lighthearted and it may work, and you may gain a customer.

Oopsadaisy

liam8282 wrote: »

It was the same as when an earlier poster said buy a banger, block the car in.

You are legally not allowed to block a car in, with a chain, a banger, a ton of potatoes..... The offending blockage will be removed, be that by the council or whoever.

I also believe it is an offence to block a car in on purpose, so you would probably end up in court too???

The earlier suggestion was mine, and I was making it to show how grey enforcement of regs can be.

You are possibly right that the council could remove a blocking-banger....but it'll take them several hours to do so; by which time the offender will be very late. Do council powers include private land...I don't think they do in this case??

Remember the blocking banger is only blocking because the person who parked it made a 'mistake'; there is no way they deliberately blocked in an offender....lol.

I'd actually go so far as to suggest that 'clamping in operation' signs will be replaced by 'Warning inconsiderate parking happens in this car park'.

Remember the landowner won't be looking to get money for moving the banger, merely making it obvious to the offender not to do it again.

I think the police can issue a fixed £30 fine for 'inconsiderate parking' or maybe they do the driver of the banger [if they can prove who it was, because the person coming back to pick uo the car may not be the origional parker] with driving without due care and attention?? In addition I believe that the police powers wrt parking etc don't apply on private land

Either way I don't believe they will be too interested [since it's not clampers demanding money, but merely a civil parking dispute].

So just as these regs won't stop muppets parking in a private car park, neither will they stop landowners exacting a 'penalty' on offenders.

I do agree with other posters that a chain across the exit and no exit without payment seems sensible, but if this is illegal then every airport, rail station and NCP car park is gonna have serious problems.

Many people in London will now be looking forward to free parking in these car parks....currently £35 a day, soon to be free. Again this shows the idiocy of the quick fix solution.

ashleypride

liam8282 wrote: »

How do cars get clamped again?

Oh they go onto private land and park without permission, thats it. :eek:

Lol that's not it. Clampers clamped whatever they could get away with. The problem is when you put signs up, and people stop parking 'illegaly' you have to get a little bit creative to make money - no tax disc displayed, a bit of rust, because you feel like it.

Coblcris

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

Just for clarification, any person who thinks that the "banger" method is workable will be disappointed. A council will have the authority to remove the vehicle by virtue of s.99(1)(c) RTRA 1984

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=the+road+traffic+regulation+act+1984&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=2223862&ActiveTextDocId=2224004&filesize=11962

The regulations are known as "The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986" and the council will be able to charge for removal and storgae if they trace the owner or otherwise they will dispose of the "banger".

Liam if you have a car park area then talk to your local councillor and try and get the council to agree to regulating it or at least give the appearance that it is regulated and enforceable.

Exactly so.
Someone should inform the BPA.
As very useful point to made when the legislation to stop private clamping proceeeds.

lucylucky

Oopsadaisy wrote: »

The earlier suggestion was mine, and I was making it to show how grey enforcement of regs can be.

You are possibly right that the council could remove a blocking-banger....but it'll take them several hours to do so; by which time the offender will be very late. Do council powers include private land...I don't think they do in this case??

Remember the blocking banger is only blocking because the person who parked it made a 'mistake'; there is no way they deliberately blocked in an offender....lol.

I'd actually go so far as to suggest that 'clamping in operation' signs will be replaced by 'Warning inconsiderate parking happens in this car park'.

Remember the landowner won't be looking to get money for moving the banger, merely making it obvious to the offender not to do it again.

I think the police can issue a fixed £30 fine for 'inconsiderate parking' or maybe they do the driver of the banger [if they can prove who it was, because the person coming back to pick uo the car may not be the origional parker] with driving without due care and attention?? In addition I believe that the police powers wrt parking etc don't apply on private land

Either way I don't believe they will be too interested [since it's not clampers demanding money, but merely a civil parking dispute].

So just as these regs won't stop muppets parking in a private car park, neither will they stop landowners exacting a 'penalty' on offenders.

I do agree with other posters that a chain across the exit and no exit without payment seems sensible, but if this is illegal then every airport, rail station and NCP car park is gonna have serious problems.

Many people in London will now be looking forward to free parking in these car parks....currently £35 a day, soon to be free. Again this shows the idiocy of the quick fix solution.

Car parks that currently require payment are not about to become "free" so people in London, and elsewhere will still have to hand over their cash.

trisontana

lucylucky wrote: »

Car parks that currently require payment are not about to become "free" so people in London, and elsewhere will still have to hand over their cash.

Yes there does seem to be a bit of confusion amongst some people over the difference between legitimate parking payments (the sort you usually pay through a P&D or pay-on-exit machine) and the outrageous "penalties" demanded by private parking companies if you breach any of their "rules". The former should be paid, the latter not.