MSE News: Wheel clamping to be banned on private land

RobertinHerts

trets77 wrote: »

to mis Quote a Paula Cole song :
Seriously though , how come this Government can so something about this so quick and effective , to a almost universal chorus of approval , yet New Labour managed to do.....NOTHING in 13 years .

Milliband Bros please answer me that one .

it's not like they didn't know what would would happen , as Scottish society is not it's knees without these crooks.

Well done present government for actually listening to the people you represent :T:T:T:T

Absolutely. Labour just tinkered once or twice in 13 years while people suffered.

Will Labout vote against the Freedom bill in Parliament? Or are they hoping no one will remember their inaction?

Robert

usignuolo

Everyone keeps saying locked barriers are "tantamount" to clamping and therefore would be illegal.

That is NOT what the minister said. She cited the use of barriers in Scotland as an example of how private landowners could stop people parking on their land:

"Of course, landowners have a right to stop people parking on their land – but no longer by clamping. In Scotland – where clamping was banned nearly twenty years ago (very successfully) landowners either protect their land by barrier methods or introduce ticketing. "

bigturnip

I guess we're not going to get a definitive answer until the new law is introduced and the wording is scoured over to find any loopholes.

However, I am pretty sure when the minister talks about using barriers to stop people parking on private land she means barriers to keep them out, not keep them in. It's the legality of the latter that I am interested in.

Coupon-mad

bigturnip wrote: »

The solutions may be sensible in a town or city where you have traffic wardens to do patrols, but in my small village with a train station and no traffic wardens what practical solutions are there to stop people parking on private land and going off to work on the train?

Errrr...why on earth would anyone in their right mind park in a private car park if this was a village with NO traffic wardens? No on street Council/Police enforcement and of course - it follows - no restrictions on the public roads?

Obviously anyone parking up for the day to go to work is going to park on a street aren't they? Or am I missing something here, not all the streets are going to be too narrow for any cars to park surely?

Oopsadaisy

The ban will presumably try to ban 'excessive charges, whilst still allowing pay and display and landowners to charge for parking, etc.

Let's say that 'penalty charges' are banned, but 'parking charges' are still legal.

Pay on entry, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Pay and display, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Now we come to exit barriers, if you've used a car park with clear signs showing parking charges and then refuse to pay does the landowner have to let you leave without paying?? If the answer is 'Yes', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Yes, but they can issue you a ticket/invoice, get your details from DVLA and take you to court', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Sort of Yes, but they can refuse until they get the police [since it's like trying to leave a restaurant without paying for the meal,] and you then have to give your full name and address and they can then sue you for the money' then we might have to pay as it takes ages to get out. If the answer is 'No, they can refuse exit until you pay [it's a civil dispute so police don't care]' then little has changed.

As long as the landowner has clear signs up saying 'Parking Charge - £50 per day, minimum of 1 day, pay on exit', then where does that stand??

Maybe someone in Scotland can explain how thier pay on exit car parks handle things without being accused of being clampers???

lucylucky

Oopsadaisy wrote: »

The ban will presumably try to ban 'excessive charges, whilst still allowing pay and display and landowners to charge for parking, etc.

Let's say that 'penalty charges' are banned, but 'parking charges' are still legal.

Pay on entry, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Pay and display, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Now we come to exit barriers, if you've used a car park with clear signs showing parking charges and then refuse to pay does the landowner have to let you leave without paying?? If the answer is 'Yes', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Yes, but they can issue you a ticket/invoice, get your details from DVLA and take you to court', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Sort of Yes, but they can refuse until they get the police [since it's like trying to leave a restaurant without paying for the meal,] and you then have to give your full name and address and they can then sue you for the money' then we might have to pay as it takes ages to get out. If the answer is 'No, they can refuse exit until you pay [it's a civil dispute so police don't care]' then little has changed.

As long as the landowner has clear signs up saying 'Parking Charge - £50 per day, minimum of 1 day, pay on exit', then where does that stand??

Maybe someone in Scotland can explain how thier pay on exit car parks handle things without being accused of being clampers???

As clamping is banned in Scotland no-one would be accused of being one in the above scenario. (It is deemed to be theft and/or extortion)


I can honestly say I have never used a car park that has totally unrestricted access but some sort of gated egress, so I cannot help with your question.

davidgmmafan

I've been reading this thread with amusement and interest, as to me it has parallels with an area I am interested in bank charges. A lot or the arguments are essentially the same, the charges became ridiculous and. like clamping, most of the firms doing it were pretty dire. Banks, on the whole, have lowered thier charges to try to head off the very readl possibility of government action. The clamping industry as a whole did not.

I can understand, so some extent, the argument that not all clampers are bad or scum, the trouble is people need to make some generlizations to get through life and if thier perception is that a large percentage of clampers ARE scum then they're not going to lose any sleep over the handfull that are decent.

Totally agree with the Darwin awards thing, and can understand concerns that there maybe problems with enforcement in certain carparks. I think its a non-sense to suggest when you are going into a multi story car park the company is somehow doing something wrong by having a barrier. The signs on every floor, the list of parking charged. You've clearly entered a contract, you understood the terms.

The problem with the small business type of car parks is there is no fee structure, so this contractual argument doesn't really apply other than with regard to clamping which is soon to be gone.

I would hope that, despite the good headlines this is getting there are some high quality discussions within the government to address the concerns expressed here. I can certainly see some kind of beefing up of the ticketting system, perhaps a maximum of £30? Some sort of new law or fast track to enforce them.

There are no quick fixes, but the stats quo was benefitting no-one. As other have said if clamping was supposed to deter people it clearly isn't working and you can tell from the way they act that wasn't the intention. Then WANT people to park where they shouldn't so they can take thier eyes out. If they for example had a quiet word as the person was parking the car then they would be deterring them, if they wait round the corner to spring out and clamp the car then its clearly only about the money.

PS people use the deterrent argument for bank charges, and if its true why do they generate £3.6 billion a year (ish).

avizandum_2

Oopsadaisy wrote: »

The ban will presumably try to ban 'excessive charges, whilst still allowing pay and display and landowners to charge for parking, etc.

Let's say that 'penalty charges' are banned, but 'parking charges' are still legal.

Pay on entry, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Pay and display, with no barriers...obviously no issue there - you can get in and out.

Now we come to exit barriers, if you've used a car park with clear signs showing parking charges and then refuse to pay does the landowner have to let you leave without paying?? If the answer is 'Yes', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Yes, but they can issue you a ticket/invoice, get your details from DVLA and take you to court', then all private car parks will in essence be free. If the answer is 'Sort of Yes, but they can refuse until they get the police [since it's like trying to leave a restaurant without paying for the meal,] and you then have to give your full name and address and they can then sue you for the money' then we might have to pay as it takes ages to get out. If the answer is 'No, they can refuse exit until you pay [it's a civil dispute so police don't care]' then little has changed.

As long as the landowner has clear signs up saying 'Parking Charge - £50 per day, minimum of 1 day, pay on exit', then where does that stand??

Maybe someone in Scotland can explain how thier pay on exit car parks handle things without being accused of being clampers???

I would hazard a guess that if a car park has CLEAR signs (e.g. Olley v Marlborough Court Hotel) stating a required payment for using the premises in question that a refusal to pay after using the premises would be a matter for civil action. (It is a contractual dispute) Extremely doubtful that carpark owners could keep your car. (This could be seen as tantamount to clamping)
The police will consider it a civil matter. (Unless you end up in a punch up...)

The worst that happens in Scotland if you park on private land which says 'no parking-private' but doesn't impose charges is:
a) those pesky sticky stickers. Murder to get off your window I can tell you.
b) You get 'chained in' to the car park. They usually remove the exit chain the next day and tell you off.
c)You get verbally harassed by employees of carpark owners
d) In one case I know of, a neighbour called the police about a car parked NEAR their property. Wasn't on a driveway. The police asked the owner to move it. Owner moved it.

In my experience, most people up here respect private parking. I have never heard of anyone parking on a driveway.

Glad to hear about the clamping ban

bigturnip

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Errrr...why on earth would anyone in their right mind park in a private car park if this was a village with NO traffic wardens? No on street Council/Police enforcement and of course - it follows - no restrictions on the public roads?

Obviously anyone parking up for the day to go to work is going to park on a street aren't they? Or am I missing something here, not all the streets are going to be too narrow for any cars to park surely?

Because it's close to the station and people are lazy, nobody parks on the road the station is on as it's a main A road, there used to be a free car park at the station, but it was sold off for housing.

But that's irrelevant, the point is they do park on private land and what legal actions are able to be taken to stop it? Ticketing is pointless, it only takes 6 people to know they are unenforceable and the parking is full, it's been tried before.

bigturnip

davidgmmafan wrote: »

There are no quick fixes, but the stats quo was benefitting no-one. As other have said if clamping was supposed to deter people it clearly isn't working and you can tell from the way they act that wasn't the intention.

But it clearly does work, of course you're going to get the odd person who isn't used to the area getting clamped, in big towns and cities you are going to get people who are willing to chance it and the clampers will be there to pounce on them, but once cars start getting regularly clamped then word soon gets around people who regularly park in the area.