Tenants not sticking to the rules

N79

althestan wrote: »

You do understand what ground 12 is do you, breach of contract an express term in the contract.

But to be sure the Landlord could use the special AST ground S21 no defence end of story.

Of course she does, but do you understand that it is (effectively) impossible to evict under ground 12.

tbs624

althestan wrote: »

You do understand what ground 12 is do you, breach of contract an express term in the contract.

But to be sure the Landlord could use the special AST ground S21 no defence end of story.

If you could show me where in the Act banning smoking in public places etc it gives the statutory right to smoke in areas not covered by the Act and where this has become a statutory right in a AST agreement, i will readily accept I am wrong.

Am pretty sure that Clutton knows about Grounds for Repossession.

However, I think it highly unlikely that a judge would agree to repossession requested by the LL on the grounds that a T broke a no-smoking clause on the tenancy agreement, even if you tried to use a combination of any/all of the following:

Ground 12

Any obligation of the tenancy (other than one related to the payment of rent) has been broken or not performed.

Ground 13

The condition of the dwelling-house or any of the common parts has deteriorated owing to acts of waste by, or neglect or default of, the tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house and, in the case of an act of waste by, or neglect or default of, a person lodging with the tenent or a sub-tenant of his, the tenant has not taken such steps as he ought reasonably to have taken for the removal of the lodger or sub-tenant.
For the purpose of the ground, “common parts” means any part of a building comprising the dwelling-house and any other premises which the tenant is entitled under the terms of the tenancy to use in common with the occupiers of other dwelling-houses in which the landlord has an estate or interest.


Ground 15

The condition of any furniture provided for use under the tenancy has, in the opinion of the court, deteriorated owing to ill-treatment by the tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house and, in the case of ill-treatment by a person lodging with the tenant or by a sub-tenant of his, the tenant has not taken such steps as he ought reasonably to have taken for the removal of the lodger or sub-tenant.

These are only *discretionary grounds* and the reality is that the LLs only real recourse is to serve a s21 and kick the T out at the earliest legal opportunity. There's nothing to say, however, that your next T may not also turn to the ciggies ( or worse) and perhaps also be less than reliable with the rent........

Many would view the tenancy deposit as being the most suitable way to cover any costs involved in redecorating/cleaning. You could in theory try for a court injunction to prevent T from smoking and/or a civil law action for damages for breach of contract if you had nothing better to do with your time and money.

Make sure that you give all future Ts full details of the costs which may be involved in returning a smoked-in premises to the property's condition when originally let to them, but remember that you can't avail yourself of "betterment".

clutton_2

i have used Ground 12, along with 5 other discretionary grounds, to get a tenant evicted... i had such a huge body of evidence with independent witness statments, i would have been stunned had i not got possession.... the judge agreed.

As N79 says.. Ground 12 alone... no chance of eviction ...

tbs624

clutton wrote: »

i have used Ground 12, along with 5 other discretionary grounds, to get a tenant evicted... i had such a huge body of evidence with independent witness statments, i would have been stunned had i not got possession.... the judge agreed.

but was that simply for a T who "disobeyed" a tenancy clause on not smoking in the property?

clutton wrote: »

As N79 says.. Ground 12 alone... no chance of eviction ...

As I say above, repossession unlikely in the OPs case where the T's smoking and the resultant lingering pong/disolouration of indoor decor appear to be the only source of the LLs complaint, even if other discretionary Grounds *were* put forward by LL.

LL has the option of reimbursement form the Ts deposit plus option of court action if deposit doesn't cover all LL's "loss"

althestan

althestan wrote: »

But it is permissible to include things such as no smoking, no pets, no children in a tenancy agreement. If the tenant does not comply then they are in breach of said agreement and the landlord can seek a court order to evict on Ground 12: tenant alleged to be in breach of tenancy agreement for reasons other than rent arrears. The LL would need to correctly serve a notice seeking possession giving 2 weeks notice. This is a discretionary ground so a Judge would need to be convinced that it was reasonable for the tenant to lose their home.
The Tenant could try and argue that the no smoking clause is unfair under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The Tenant would need to consider their limited security of tenure though.

Both parties have rights and obligations under the contract they have entered into. Enforcing those rights using the legal route is both expensive and inconvenient for both.
Best course of action – LL has concerns, LL speaks with tenant explains concerns, hopefully reaches an amicable solution, everyone happy.

As above yes I do understand thanks.

I think that the LL insurance could be invalidated may be a concern to the LL.

lynzpower

althestan wrote: »

As above yes I do understand thanks.

I think that the LL insurance could be invalidated may be a concern to the LL.

its amazing what sometimes is a concern to the LL

In my experience Landlords bang on about how someone smoking might invalidate thier insurance, yet dont PAT test appliances, never show 5 year electrical certs, some you are lucky to get a gas safety cert, dodgy locks, you name it, Ive seen it.

Have a look here:

http://www.capic.org.uk/house_fires.html

Scroll down to causes of domestic fires:

althestan

Where did I say the Landlord should evict?
Why all the ............
why the

althestan

tbs624 wrote: »

Am pretty sure that Clutton knows about Grounds for Repossession.

However, I think it highly unlikely that a judge would agree to repossession requested by the LL on the grounds that a T broke a no-smoking clause on the tenancy agreement, even if you tried to use a combination of any/all of the following:

Ground 12

Any obligation of the tenancy (other than one related to the payment of rent) has been broken or not performed.

Ground 13

The condition of the dwelling-house or any of the common parts has deteriorated owing to acts of waste by, or neglect or default of, the tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house and, in the case of an act of waste by, or neglect or default of, a person lodging with the tenent or a sub-tenant of his, the tenant has not taken such steps as he ought reasonably to have taken for the removal of the lodger or sub-tenant.
For the purpose of the ground, “common parts” means any part of a building comprising the dwelling-house and any other premises which the tenant is entitled under the terms of the tenancy to use in common with the occupiers of other dwelling-houses in which the landlord has an estate or interest.


Ground 15

The condition of any furniture provided for use under the tenancy has, in the opinion of the court, deteriorated owing to ill-treatment by the tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house and, in the case of ill-treatment by a person lodging with the tenant or by a sub-tenant of his, the tenant has not taken such steps as he ought reasonably to have taken for the removal of the lodger or sub-tenant.

These are only *discretionary grounds* and the reality is that the LLs only real recourse is to serve a s21 and kick the T out at the earliest legal opportunity. There's nothing to say, however, that your next T may not also turn to the ciggies ( or worse) and perhaps also be less than reliable with the rent........

Many would view the tenancy deposit as being the most suitable way to cover any costs involved in redecorating/cleaning. You could in theory try for a court injunction to prevent T from smoking and/or a civil law action for damages for breach of contract if you had nothing better to do with your time and money.

Make sure that you give all future Ts full details of the costs which may be involved in returning a smoked-in premises to the property's condition when originally let to them, but remember that you can't avail yourself of "betterment".

And you miss the point of the post:rotfl:

tbs624

althestan wrote: »

And you miss the point of the post:rotfl:

No, I chose to follow this part of your post and specifically ignored the rest of it
[QUOTE=althestanYou do understand what ground 12 is do you, breach of contract an express term in the contract.[/QUOTE]

delain

Clutton I have to admit if I was in your situation being denied access for things like gas safety checks would have worried me too.

I have to admit I like a little bit of notice when the LL or plumber needs to come over, but I have got three children and the house isn't always pristine so I tend to arrange things for the next day so I can give the kitchen and bathroom a quick once-over and reduce any huge piles of washing that are hanging about :rotfl: Not that any of that damages the house but I like it to look tidy for LL!

To be honest I wouldn't feel comfortable with breaking the terms of my tenancy, although my LL did ask if I smoked an I said no I hate it and no one is allowed to do it in my house (chip on my shoulder there really, my mum smoked a lot and I got hassled about 'giving up smoking' at school and no one would believe my clothes just stunk because of the house) so I don't actually know whether smoking in my house is permitted or not.

Regardless of whether the LL can evict for smoking or not it still makes for an uncomfortable relationship between LL and Tenant if the LL is suspicious about what Tenant is up to, doesn't sound like it will end well.