Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

wirm

Capital One have now told me that the following allow me to change my chip and pin number:

Lloyd's TSB
HSBC
Nationwide
Royal Bank of Scotland
Natwest
Ulster Bank
Alliance and Leicester
Barclays
Halifax (from December 2004)
Royal Bank of Scotland (from December 2004)
Abbey National (from January 2005)
Clydesdale Bank
Northern Bank
Yorkshire Bank
National Irish Bank

Any of these that are in my town don't let me because I have tried! So how do they expect me to change my pin number?

MarkyMarkD

Well, I think that means that either the ATMs you are using are not CHIP enabled, or that the chip in the card is faulty.

The ATMs would still let you use the card if the mag strip worked, even if the CHIP was duff, I presume.

If you've tried loads of machines, I would tell Cap One that the chip doesn't work and ask for a new card.

BTW have you successfully used the card to make a CHIP and PIN purchase? That would confirm whether the chip is working.

weatherwax_2

I've only used chip 'n pin twice, but on both occasions I felt distinctly paranoid about entering my pin as the keys on the machine were so large and the little raised sides on it (supposedly to shelter from prying eyes) struck me as being of very little use.

I felt like doing a Dracula and pulling my coat wide to ensure that nobody could have a sneaky look at the pin. ::) I found myself wishing that I had some sort of device that would shield the keys properly.

Am I being unnecessarily paranoid?

James

I found myself wishing that I had some sort of device that would shield the keys properly.

Am I being unnecessarily paranoid?

Absolutely not. The Times carried a story on the 19 December - Woolwich blamed loyal 74-year-old for fraud.

A customer of 56 years suffered from a fraud hit of £3500. The Woolwich implied he had committed the fraud himself, or that he had been negligent with his PIN or had written it down. I wasn't until the press became involved that this was rectifiied.

If you've not got a PIN this simply cannot happen to you!

dthyer

But couldn't the equivalent happen with a signature card?

A thief could steal your card and then buy lots of expensive stuff, signing for it with a squiggle that looks close enough to your own. Then when you report it to the bank, they could argue 'that was you that signed for those goods' or 'you let someone else take your card and forge your signature'.

If you are unlucky enough to be a victim of credit card theft then I think you have to hope that your credit card issuer will be reasonable, whether you are using a signature or a PIN to authorise purchases.

But to answer weatherwax's question, don't be embarrassed about shielding your PIN, it's much better to avoid being a victim of fraud than to have to rely on the reasonableness of your credit card issuer.

DT

James

But couldn't the equivalent happen with a signature card?

Not really, the difference being as long as there is a transaction slip with a signature, the banks have to prove it is your signature. Your prints wont be on the shop or banks copy of the transaction slip. The case in the Times would suggest card issuers are taking a different stance when it comes to PIN misuse.

This is what the CSMA had to say about their photo credit card: (being replaced by Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature)
Photo Security Option:
Turn the csma card over and there's a photograph of you on the back - something which simply can't be forged. It's an excellent security feature that gives you peace of mind by effectively reducing the chances of card misuse.

If you have a card that can be machine checked (Chipped) and that card carries the card owners photo, then I would suggest that this type of card is far safer to carry than a Chip & PIN card. Why? Because it can't be used to withdraw cash at an atm, the chances of it being used fraudulently in a retail outlet is reduced to a minimum. What sort of crooks wants a card like that?

In fact it sounds something like an ID card and with the law about to change so that persons carrying false or stolen ID type documents will be committing a crime!

Does anyone know of a card issuer who is issuing such a card, credit or debit?

coppersaver

I feel the same! Standing in the middle of a crowded shop entering my PIN, I'm always looking round in case someone is watching! I always try to enter my pin as quickly as possible!  :-/

My problem is remembering all the pin numbers in the first place! I have different cards to get the best deal (learned that on this site!) but I think I have a few too many cards to remember all the numbers... and I don't like the idea of putting the same number on them all, even if that is possible. can't they just take my fingerprint instead? LOL!

wirm

My problem is remembering all the pin numbers in the first place! I have different cards to get the best deal (learned that on this site!) but I think I have a few too many cards to remember all the numbers... and I don't like the idea of putting the same number on them all, even if that is possible. can't they just take my fingerprint instead? LOL!

Yeah I have three different cards and would like to change them all to the same number but if someone steals my wallet! i'm screwed! lol


Fingerprints! pfft! DNA!

dthyer

Just to reply to James: Have a look at the Banking Code Guidance for Subscribers at http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/consolidatedguidance010404.pdf where in Section 12.10 (pages 43-44) it says:

Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or without reasonable
care, your liability for the misuse of your card will be limited as follows.

• If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.
• If someone else uses your card details without your permission for a
  transaction where the cardholder does not need to be present, you will not
  have to pay anything.
• If your card is used before you have received it, you will not have to pay
  anything.

Unless the customer has acted fraudulently or without reasonable care (which the
subscriber must prove – see below), the customer is liable for a maximum of £50 in
total (and not for each transaction) before they give notification of loss, etc., if the
card is out of their possession.

<snip - some cut out here from brevity>

This provision confirms that the burden of proof lies with the subscriber and not with
the customer, so the subscriber will have to provide proof if necessary. However,
this should be read in conjunction with section 12.3, which requires co-operation by
the customer.

End of quote.

So the burden of proof is with the credit card issuer, not the customer.

I do agree with you that adding photos onto cards would be good also. And I think the banks should offer customers the option to have a different PIN for cash withdrawals, or no PIN for cash withdrawals, particularly as withdrawing cash on a credit card is not usually a good money saving idea!

But I don't think signatures were a great way of validating a transaction, and although PINs are not perfect, I think they are a step better.

DT

Rafter

Please please please remember the system we have now!!!!!

If you card is stolen all someone has to do now is forge your signature or even just use the card at an automated checkout or fuel pump to avoid any check at all!

If you accidentally drop your card now it can be used by a fraudster. A chip and pin card is useless after 3 random attempts - it is locked.

If someone really does overlook you entering your pin they have to then steal your card and use it before you call and cancel the card.

Try looking at someone entering a pin too - can you really tell which keys are pressed and it which order by someone standing a couple of metres away? I'm pretty observant and don't think I can do it. Most shop keypads are no worse than cash point machines for being overlooked anyway. Supermarket ones I've see are a lot better actually because you haven't got someone stood behind you usually.

If you can't remember your pin number change it. You can do it at any enabled cash point - if the first one doesn't work - try another or ask at a bank branch if their machine has been enabled.

If your chip card doesn't work, call the lost and stolen line on the back of the card and tell them the card is damaged.

This is progress guys! I just don't get why people don't see it that way. A signature is a weak security control. Despite the home office confidence with ID cards, the card companies decided finger print or iris recognition wasn't accurate or relaible enough.

Would you really like having your eye scanned every time you get to the checkout anyway?

As the chip and pin website http://www.chipandpin.org.uk says, there are a lot of myths floating around. Read the facts and make up your own mind.

R.