Electricity meter going backwards after installing Solar PV

Terrylw1

Orffyreus wrote: »

I have a 2.45KW system and having spoken to my installer and several other people within the industry have been told that I have no obligation to tell my supplier about a meter that runs backwards. I may have a moral obligation but that is for each individual to decide and not what this forum is for.

Basically I have to do nothing other than supply a correct meter reading when requested. Periodically my supply meter will be read by a third party company on behalf of my supplier.

The facts are:

My installer notified my DNO that there was now a PV installation at my property that was connected to my supply meter and supplied them with the MPAN meter serial number and type.

The DNO has an obligation to notify my supplier of the installation. I presume they have.

In my case, my supplier is also my FITS licensee, so I know I have.

Either way, my supplier is aware of my installation and meter type.

I supply meter readings (often) and my meter has been read by the third party company.

I still have my old meter, it reads the same today as it did on February 8th.

This could mean that I only use electricity that I generate, or it could also mean that my meter goes forwards and backwards.

I will wait and see what my supplier intends to do but I would be very reluctant to settle an estimated bill when I am only obliged to pay for the amount of electricity used as shown on my calibrated tamper proof analogue meter.

renewable-energy-resource.net/meterrunsbackwards.html

The DNO sends a data flow to the supplier to confirm the site is capable.

The supplier won't know much from the meter details, they contract their agents to handle that part.

If your reading isn't advancing then your supplier may get it rejected it for an investigation into a possible stopped meter, which is where any issues may come to light.

Orffyreus

My points are that they are aware that PV has been installed and they will no doubt be aware of the issues that may or may not arise.

After all, they are aware that meters do regress and they do have lots of customers with similar installations that will be benefiting from regressive meters so as long as there is no wrong doing on my part, ie: by submitting false meter readings, then I do not have to be concerned at their lack of knowledge, common sense or inability to communicate internally.

I know it is just a matter of time before my meter gets changed but in the words of Morris West “If you spend your whole life waiting for the storm, you'll never enjoy the sunshine.”

Terrylw1

Well the Meter Operator will certainly send them data flow which includes its capability to import/export.

As long as you give the readings, its up to them to think it out...they may not!

Orffyreus

I suspect they already have, a meter reading was taken on the 8th June by their 3rd party company and I received an estimated bill for just 8 days usage @ 30kwh.

Incidentally the bill showed MY last submitted reading, not that taken on the day by the 3rd party company.

I suspect they may be expecting an incorrect reading to be entered but that may be me being paranoid :-)

I have a website Greenersky.co.uk and have emailed all the fits suppliers asking for their views with regards to meters running backwards due to micro generation. I will let everyone know what they are when I receive the responses.

Terrylw1

Could you ask DECC or the Meter Operators body?

Estimates are usually produced by the system so if your consumption is low over the period they are estimating their data from, it could come out low and never be checked by a user. If they billed it themselves manually it may say something like amended on it and the user has chosen to estimate something.

I guess the question is whether its less than what your meter is recording.

Orffyreus

I don't think the issues are really within the remit of DECC or any meter operations regulator but I may look into that.

My usage is low-ish, about 6.45kwh a day and my direct debit for electricity has recently been lowered to £1 a month.

Because my consumption is relatively low, any good production days have a noticeable, regressive impact on my meter reading even though I mainly work at home.

Despite all the evidence pointing to the fact that my meter turns backwards (IE: 2 regressive meter readings submitted and one company meter reading taken, again regressive solar panels fitted etc) I have received an email just today asking me to recheck my readings because they think I am reading it incorrectly. I also got a nice little set of instructions on how to do this.

I think I will play along with this to see how far we get. I have worked out all the figures and I will owe about £34 so nothing to worry about in the grand scheme of things.

Terrylw1

Its not the suppliers view that's required, its the published industry guidance which they have to follow.

Elexon are responsible for all this when it comes to settlement (energy payments from suppliers to distributors and all the processes and agents it goes through) so they are the most likely ones to answer what you need.

Try on here. There is an introduction to micro generation .PDF on here that talks about the requirement to fit a "backstop" meter to prevent the surplus causing backwards running.

http://www.elexon.co.uk/reference/technical-operations/metering/

Since this is their enforced policy, you could contact them with any further questions.

Orffyreus

Thanks for the link, having spoken to Elexon and trawled their website, the current regulation, as far as I can ascertain, is:

• When informed of the installation of microgeneration, the LDSO should inform the Import Supplier that the respective site is capable of microgeneration; and

• The Import Supplier and Meter Operator will investigate whether the relevant Meter is fitted with a backstop and where applicable replace the Meter with one that is fitted with a backstop.

Each company involved should comply to the relevant section of the regulation ie: the section that applies to them, within 10 working days.

In theory, the maximum length of time from installation to a meter being replaced should be no more than 30 working days and is initiated by your system installer when he notifies the LDSO.

fuzzer

I am in this position too. The Energy Supplier wants to replace my meter for one with a back-stop. But as this post has stated, that a back-stopped meter will not give you a true reading of energy generated/used.

I'm waiting to see what Scottish Power come back with.



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ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

I have to disagree with some of the posters in this post and here is why:

Having a meter that runs backwards is, in my opionion, probably the most accurate way of truly tracking what is used and fed back to the supplier. To say that the owner of a PV system should have a meter replaced that is runing backwards, is, unfair at best, and "extortion" by the electricity supplier at worst. Here's why ...

If a meter goes backwards (because the PV systems are generating more than a person is currently using), then the backward meter "stores" what the panels have produced for the owner. However, in the course of the same day, it is more than likely going to be used and the meter move forward again. The generated/used energy balances itself out and the PV owner gets to keep and use the energy they have created in a day.

Now, let's assume the electricity board comes in a fits a new meter that is adjusted to not go backwards. The moment the PV panels produce excess energy, the electricty board is gaining all that energy, which, the moment your meter starts to move forward again, they will charge their going rate for it. Just because you did not use the energy YOU produced the same second it was produced, they charge you the full cost of the unit after paying you only 3.1 p for passing it onto them! (And this only half the time.) By stopping your meter from accurately recording your excess on the same meter you then use to acquire electricity a few minutes later, you get charged the huge difference between the export tariff and your usage tariff! When I found this out, I immediately complained to the energy provider and explained that this was totally unfair and I did not agree with this.

Now, let me quickly add, I am not condoning anything sinister here or illegal in my opinion. However, having a dial that goes a few units backards, only to be used a little later in the same day should not be considered theft at all, but a good and proper use of the energy that the panels are providing. Just because the electricty board are acting as the storage for a few minutes (or even days say in the course of the change of weather and seasons), it should not give them the right to charge you (the generator) to use the energy you created! The system copes just as easily taking in the energy as it does returning it and should not be any reason to charge for it.

There is a really simple solution to the Export Tariff situation and that is to provide meters that run backwards and check the readings every quarter or better still, every year! As this will take into account seasonal changes and allow a careful user to use the energy they created wisely. At the end of the year, if the meter reads negative (and the owner has created more energy than they used), then the electricty supplier can pay the 3.1 p per unit as agreed, which they can sell to anybody else that wants it for a profit. Both sides happy! On the other hand, if the meter reads positive (where the panel owner has used more energy than they have created), then they should pay what they owe at the normal rate. NB: This can even be estimated or kept on top of over the course of months if the supplier really wanted to be funny about it. However, I would even pay a few hundred quid up front to the supplier to keep them happy, as long as they paid back what I did not use at the end of the term.

I have already contacted my own electricty supplier and said as much - and while I have currently opted in for the Export Tariff, I said I would happily ignore this "benefit" until I knew whether I had or had not generated enough energy to qualify for it. What I strongly disagree with, is the electricity suppliers offering to alter my meter for the following reasons:-

These were all said to me when I asked about this question:

1) I would benefit from a stopped meter because I would avoid estimated bills.

2) The current meter would have problems with the "polarity".

The bottom line is, if I had fiddled with the meter and stopped it from running forwards, you can guarantee they would be on me like a ton of bricks ... and rightly so! However, now that the "dials have turned" (as it were), what a nerve they have to try to stop it from running in the opposite direction. Has their super accurate system suddenly developed a fault that needs addressing. No! They realise that owners that create this electricty will and should greatly reduce their reliance on the electricity supplier. A "quick fix" for them is to have a kind of "stealth tax" system that appears to offer a reward by the way of an Export Tariff based upon an estimated percentage of your time at home at the price of charging you for the energy you just produced for free at their normal cost!

I left it with the supplier saying that I believe over the course of a year I do not believe my system will generate enough energy to make the meter move forward in that time, even if it might move forward occassionally on a very sunny day. I also said if they felt I was being unfair, to NOT supply me the additional Export Tariff, even though I have currently applied for it. The bottom line is, I do NOT want to be unfair to my supplier by taking a payment that I have not earned, BUT, in the same token, I do not expect to pay full price for some energy that I had just produced for free only a few minutes earlier.

When "threatened" with legal action, I even said that I will cross that bridge when it comes to it because I truly believe they are not giving me a fair deal. I was told to contact the Energy Trust Organisation (I think that's what they were called) and Ofgem. I spoke to someone of the first group and the chap there agreed with my calculations and said that while the supplier had no legal right to change the meter, that they could "insist". I replied that I could also "insist" that they do NOT. I have left a message with Ofgem, but have not had a reply to date.

I would even go as far to say that the electricity suppliers are being unfair in their dealings in this situation and taking advantage of those who have not looked closer at this. And I actually find it truly offensive that a supplier has the audacity to even try to take money from us in this way and hope that someone in higher authority will address this aweful injustice. I am prepared to contact my MP and the papers about this if my supplier push it further.

Think of the absurdities of trying to use the energy as you generate it to avoid extra expense: By trying to save money by using the electricty I generate as it comes in, I am more likely to use it when its the most expensive for the supplier to pass on and for me to buy - during the daytime hours. However, if the electricity board allow a simple storage for a few hours (by a backward meter), then I can use the stored electricity later in the evening, and potentially when the supplier can charge less. So, basically, by not allowing a backward meter, the electricty suppliers will channel PV owners to use energy at the most expensive time, which suppliers could have taken in (via export) and use elsewhere as demanded, and then give the energy back to the PV owner at a potentially cheaper rate later on in the day.

The bottom line is, a backward meter should never be considered ILLEGAL. Think about this logically. How can it be? On the other hand, stoppng a meter from running backwards should definitely be considered illegal and I hope someone can draw this to the attention of the right people who can force the energy providers to be more fair in their dealing swith people who are generating their own power.

Simply put ... Claim Your Energy!

Terrylw1

fuzzer wrote: »

I am in this position too. The Energy Supplier wants to replace my meter for one with a back-stop. But as this post has stated, that a back-stopped meter will not give you a true reading of energy generated/used.

I'm waiting to see what Scottish Power come back with.



[/LEFT]

Its the directive suppliers have been given by Elexon so they have to follow it.

Look at this thread as the issue of measurement is discussed in detail on here. The OP had a check meter fitted to measure the kwh to prevent poor supplier estimation as much as possible.

Once your meter is changed, you lose the ability to prove your consumption. The supplier will want to fit the backstop and estimate something, the check meter is a better way.

Honestly, microgen has been an industry farce. Why they can't get something in place to understand whether a backstop is immediately needed rather than pick it up a year later after the customer constantly complains about it, I don't know.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3191844

It would say that I don't agree with the thoughts of that other poster other than the consumer loss. The elec industry is not set up to handle backwards running, in fact when detected it flags it as a problem. It also men's the peer-to-peer forceasting tools used would become unstable. Theindustry has decided backstops are the answer so its going to require something "top down" to change it. If the other poster understands settlement and data flow processes, they would see the many ways this could go wrong. Can you imagine the poor data that would come out of supplier estimation and the impact to DD's?