QT last night - Will Self - what a fool

The_White_Horse

Mr.Brown wrote: »

Wow. I don't know enough about this subject to make a judgement one way or another. So I'll leave that the experts on here. Just to throw something into the mix though. It wasn't some kids who beat Baha Mousa to death - can anyone remind me what the punishment was in that case? I am assuming the soldiers involved were over the age of criminal responsibilty.

Complex area - crime and punishment.

what has this got to do with anything? they were tried and found innocent - or not negligent in their performance. If they were found GUILTY of murder, I would expect them to be put in prison for the rest of their lives.

These two animals were found guilty of murder.

Your point is not relevant.

treliac

Kohoutek wrote: »

That received wisdom is oversimplified. Robert Thompson came from a broken home, but Venables, who most people accept was the instigator had family problems, but 'abusive and damaging' is maybe too much of a broad brush.

The police detective, at the time, has said in interview this week that Thompson was the leader of the two and it was him, rather than Venables, who he would have expected something like this of.

Either way, I think it caused such an enormous reaction because it was such a rare case at the time. But we have become inured, our emotions blunted, over time as the vilest of crimes have become everyday events. A not disimilar attack recently attracted a lot of media attention but nothing like as much and seems to have disappeared pretty quickly from our thoughts; along with the multiple murders that go on in this country every day now.

I feel intensely for Denise Fergus and hope dearly that she gets the answers and the support she needs and deserves.

Mr.Brown_4

The_White_Horse wrote: »

what has this got to do with anything? they were tried and found innocent - or not negligent in their performance. If they were found GUILTY of murder, I would expect them to be put in prison for the rest of their lives.

These two animals were found guilty of murder.

Your point is not relevant.

I don't care that they were found innocent. They beat someone to death. God knows what the judgement was - reasonable force maybe? I am just musing over the punishments that different crimes attract, and the accompanying media (and forum) attention.

Bulger case - horrific.
Baha Mousa - horrific?

Any idea how many people have died in police custody over the last few years, and how many police have been charged as a result?

I suppose what I am saying is that there is a lot of focus on this case, and it is just one issue in a sea of problems.

The_White_Horse

as always, the lefty gravitates to the criminal first.

i saw a recording of the "wright stuff" with yasmin alibhai-brown yesterday. she actually apologised for what she had said the previous day - i don't know what she said, but it is clear that she made it clear her sympathies fell with thompson and venables and not the bulger family. she said that thinking overnight she was wrong.

respect to her. but it is the lefty way to instantly side with the criminal over the victim - to make excuses for the murderers.

stupid lefty morons.

treliac

matbe wrote: »

Anyone who has children will have had that heart stopping moment of absolute fear and dread after taking your eyes off a toddler for seconds and you think you have lost them.

Its so easy to lose track for 10 secs and there gone from view.

There but for the grace of god.....

You and me, too, matbe. My heart still stops when I think of what could have happened and my gratitude to the lady who took him to the information desk at Eurotunnel. He slipped my grasp and, busy managing a host of other things at the time, I believed he was with one of the other adults in our party.

Anyone who says they have never lost sight of their child while out and about is a downright liar.

Mr.Brown_4

The_White_Horse wrote: »

as always, the lefty gravitates to the criminal first.

I don't know if you are calling me a lefty, but you are way out on that score. I would like a fairer justice system, more accountable police, armed services, MP's, judges, etc. - better policing - meaning more on the beat, an answer to every call for help. I would like crimes against people given at least equal footing with crimes against the state or property. How about about some decent punishments for drink drivers who run over children, for husbands who batter their wives, for yobs who pick on disabled people, etc.

Left wing? What the f'ck does the right wing stand for then if not that?

The_White_Horse

Mr.Brown wrote: »

I don't care that they were found innocent. They beat someone to death. God knows what the judgement was - reasonable force maybe? I am just musing over the punishments that different crimes attract, and the accompanying media (and forum) attention.

Bulger case - horrific.
Baha Mousa - horrific?

Any idea how many people have died in police custody over the last few years, and how many police have been charged as a result?

I suppose what I am saying is that there is a lot of focus on this case, and it is just one issue in a sea of problems.

you are correct that there are a lot of problems and this case is getting (rightly) a lot of press. however, the soldiers in the mousa case were not found guilty of murder (rightly or wrongly) so the sentencing then becomes irrelevant.

these two were convicted of a gruesome murder and yet, were out after 8 years - and not even 8 years of punishment, but of holiday camp like lifestyles. If it is true that venables committed a sex attack - then the lefty that campaigned to rehabilitate etc was clearly wrong.

prison should be about rehabilitation last, behind (a) protecting society from dangerous scum and (b) punishing scum.

The_White_Horse

Mr.Brown wrote: »

I don't know if you are calling me a lefty, but you are way out on that score. I would like a fairer justice system, more accountable police, armed services, MP's, judges, etc. - better policing - meaning more on the beat, an answer to every call for help. I would like crimes against people given at least equal footing with crimes against the state or property. How about about some decent punishments for drink drivers who run over children, for husbands who batter their wives, for yobs who pick on disabled people, etc.

Left wing? What the f'ck does the right wing stand for then if not that?

i agree with all of that. but the lefty will be sticking up for the driver who was drunk, saying they were abused as a child and his father was an alcoholic, so it was inevitable that he would turn to drink. Therefore, let him off.

husbands who batter wifes? i'd give em 10 years minimum. Yobs picking on disabled - 10 years minimum. And that is 10 years of hard labour - not in some wishy washy open prison or other lefty idiot idea.

here is another one - driving without car insurance. there is NO excuse (other than maybe taking a pregnant woman/heart attack victim etc to a hospital). But what is the punishment? either a fine that is not paid and LESS than the insurance, or a ban which is ignored. Why not 10 years inside? That might actually stop it. And reduce premiums for the decent people stung to pay for these criminals.

the lefty will always have an excuse for them.

stueyhants

Mr.Brown wrote: »

...
I am just musing over the punishments that different crimes attract, and the accompanying media (and forum) attention.

I've always found aspects of the law/punishment quite strange, for example.

Person A, driving a car and falls asleep at the wheel and crashes in to a bridge. No real damage other than to the bridge and slight damage to another car. Punishment - dangerous driving/driving without due care an attention, a small sentence or just a driving ban.

Person B, driving a car and falls asleep at the wheel and crashes in to bridge (at same speed as person A), but the bridge fails and the car crashes over and lands on the train tracks below and causing a train derailment and 2 or 3 people die as a result. - Punishment, possible manslaughter?

So the same action can be given different punishments because of events outside the control of the person, is that right ?

Mr.Brown_4

The_White_Horse wrote: »

prison should be about rehabilitation last, behind (a) protecting society from dangerous scum and (b) punishing scum.

I'll start again. Sorry, but I've a bit of free time.

I honestly don't know what they should have done with the Bulger boys at the time. For the Bulgers parents then maybe execution or a life sentence would have given them some sense of justice. Anything else would seem to be too little. For the boys involved and the justice system - well I really don't know. The justice system decided to do what they did, and go for the rehabilitation option. I am not qualified to decide whether that was the right decision, but it does seem a very fair and civilised way of dealing with them. Perhaps it was too fair and civilised, but I cannot judge. It is simply too big a thing for me to get my head around. If I were the parents I would want them dead. But that is not the basis of our system, it is possibly more like Sharia law?

I didn't mention the soldiers or police deaths as a lefty comment. It is a comment on different cases getting different attention from different political groups. When ultimately someone dies, and families are left picking up the pieces.

I will be honest for a moment and admit my gut reaction was "kill them". But I think that was probably wrong.