Mobiles.co.uk Problems, going around in circles.

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative

Guys_Dad wrote: »

If you had on your web site in bold, and also on the sim packet words to the effect "Open this packet and you can not return cancel the 18 month / 2 year network contract", then that would be far better.

I don't have the exact text here in front of me but it's pretty clear that to get the SIM you have to open the envelope it comes in, and this envelope is sealed with a sticker that says something like "IMPORTANT! YOU MUST READ THIS BEFORE USING THE ENCLOSED SIM CARD!" and then details your rights under DSR - no small print, just a couple of sentences.

And on this point, can you explain why so many MSE contributors seem to be being told by the network when they contact them that they can cancel the contract even if the sim is opened? This seems to be the case in this thread.

Clearly it is most unsatisfactory all round and even some regular contributors are clearly wrong with their knowledge of this aspect of the Distance Selling Regulations.

Networks (specifically, network CS Agents) giving incorrect advice to our customers is a constant concern because, as you have noted and as even Silk found out, they do not know what they are talking about with regards to CPW, Mobiles, DSR etc half the time but obviously due to the phone/network/retailer relationship are treated as an authority that should know. We do what we can but you can imagine the influence I have on a Team Leader in Darlington or Hyderabad.

Regards,

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative

Silk,

You are conflating OFT and TS - our returns policy has been judged to comply with DSR by people with much better legal training than you or I so I'm happy to defer to their opinion.

Also bear in mind that this returns policy both pre-dates our joining CPW and is shared with all other CPW companies, so it's not like this is a Mobiles.co.uk thing.

Read GuysDad's post about DSR again - you are correct as far as goods go, but not "connected" goods or those supplied in conjunction with a service.

You also need to consider the role of the UTCCR here as they also apply.

Regards,

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative

Silk wrote: »

However, you waive your distance selling cancellation rights if you ask for the mobile phone service to start immediately

In your own words Silk, we are going above and beyond the legal requirements of the DSR because our phones are only supplied with a contract already active and therefore we aren't even obligated to provide DSR returns at all (I believe T-Mobile don't give you a cooling-off period any more, for instance).

Regards,

Guys_Dad

Silk :- You write

Whilst the implication is that they are complying with DSR's they are obviously not by adding the sim card clause to the T&C's

Under DSR's the consumer has the right on receipt of the goods to check and test the goods to ensure they are happy with them.

If they are not happy they are entitled to return the goods without giving a reason within the time limit etc etc...

Whilst I wish that you were correct - and you are as far as the handset goes - you are, regrettably incorrect in law as far as the service goes.

I quoted from the government site on Distance Selling.

See below from Which? as well. There are also many other sites saying the same thing. http://www.which.co.uk/advice/dealing-with-mobile-phone-problems/your-mobile-phone-rights/index.jsp

Your rights to change your mind about your new mobile service or mobile handset
If you take out a mobile phone service contract online, by mail order or over the phone, the Distance Selling Regulations say you have the right to cancel the order and receive a full refund for up to 7 working days from the day after you place the mobile phone order. You do not have to give a reason for canceling the mobile phone service. However, you waive your distance selling cancellation rights if you ask for the mobile phone service to start immediately.

If you buy a mobile handset online, by mail order or over the phone without also taking out a mobile service contract, you have 7 working days from the day after you receive the mobile handset to cancel the order with the mobile retailer and receive a refund for the mobile handset (obviously you must return the handset).

If you buy your mobile phone or mobile phone service in a high street shop, you do not automatically have any cancellation rights if there is no problem with the mobile handset or mobile service, although some nobile shops may voluntarily offer return policies.

You might also want to look at http://www.out-law.com/page-430#Exceptions

Please understand, I am not supporting this exemption, only telling you that if you advise anyone that they can use the sim to test the phone within the 7 day limit, rather than another old sim, they have lost their rights to cancel the service and call the deal off in law.

However, if a network is prepared to give a customer the right to cancel within 7 days after using a sim in writing, then any reseller should be prepared to accept this, but the concession should be sought by the customer's efforts from the network, rather than the dealer having to take their chances and spend time on changes-of-mind or customer errors. Faulty hardware or reception from the network not matching their published level are, of course, exceptions.

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative

Guys_Dad wrote: »

However, if a network is prepared to give a customer the right to cancel within 7 days after using a sim in writing, then any reseller should be prepared to accept this, but the concession should be sought by the customer's efforts from the network, rather than the dealer having to take their chances and spend time on changes-of-mind or customer errors. Faulty hardware or reception from the network not matching their published level are, of course, exceptions.

Speaking from experience, a) no network would give this assurance in writing and b) even if their CS dept did then the returns/cancellation department of that same network simply wouldn't care - they work to rule, no exception.


Regards,

Guys_Dad

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative wrote: »

Speaking from experience, a) no network would give this assurance in writing and b) even if their CS dept did then the returns/cancellation department of that same network simply wouldn't care - they work to rule, no exception.


Regards,

If that is the case, in post #12, Stuartmroberts received a returns number from mobiles.co.uk. Are you saying that Vodafone are, therefore, making you pay for the contract period or has the service been cancelled, given they work to rule, no exception.

And, if I could be bothered to search - which I can't - was there not another MSE member whose network contract was cancelled after time - possibly even Silk??

Silk

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative wrote: »

Silk,

You are conflating OFT and TS - our returns policy has been judged to comply with DSR by people with much better legal training than you or I so I'm happy to defer to their opinion.

Ben,
I'm not conflating OFT and TS :rotfl:
It's you that brought Trading Standards into this
We are talking about DSR's and it is the OFT which as a Government body the authority on them and they enforce them !!!
TS is an Association which was formerly "Weights and Measures"

You said

Originally Posted by Mobiles.co.uk company representative
It lines up perfectly with our understanding of the rules, as discussed with Trading Standards and our own Legal team. Provision of service is deemed acceptance of the goods provided.

I asked you .......

Hi Ben,
You say this as though it has the approval of the OFT ?
Are you on the OFT's list of approved suppliers ?
Does your T&C's have the approved OFT insignia ?

I take it you don't have approval ?????

If mobiles.co.uk wish to risk applying for it they can apply here .....
http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/approved-codes/

Originally Posted by Mobiles.co.uk company representative
Also bear in mind that this returns policy both pre-dates our joining CPW and is shared with all other CPW companies, so it's not like this is a Mobiles.co.uk thing

I never said it was just a mobiles.co.uk policy and to point out it is a CPW policy doesn't make it right I'm afraid !

Originally Posted by Mobiles.co.uk company representative
Read GuysDad's post about DSR again - you are correct as far as goods go, but not "connected" goods or those supplied in conjunction with a service.

Eeerrrrr Read my post again Ben, I think you will find I did .......

If you take out a mobile phone service contract online, by mail order or over the phone, the Distance Selling Regulations say you have the right to cancel the order and receive a full refund for up to 7 working days from the day after you place the mobile phone order. You do not have to give a reason for canceling the mobile phone service. However, you waive your distance selling cancellation rights if you ask for the mobile phone service to start immediately
If you buy a mobile handset online, by mail order or over the phone without also taking out a mobile service contract, you have 7 working days from the day after you receive the mobile handset to cancel the order with the mobile retailer and receive a refund for the mobile handset (obviously you must return the handset)

Originally Posted by Mobiles.co.uk company representative
You also need to consider the role of the UTCCR here as they also apply.

You talk about this as if it was some sort of "body" :rotfl:
They are a set of regulations used by the OFT which is there to make "unfair terms" unenforceable.

1. The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (UTCCRs) came into force on 1 October 1999 and replaced the 1994 Regulations. The regulations implement an EC Directive (EC Directive 93/13) in the UK. UTCCRs apply to standard contract terms used with consumers in contracts made after 1 July 1995. The Regulations say that a consumer is not bound by a standard term in a contract with a seller or supplier if that term is unfair. They also give the Director General of Fair Trading and other Qualifying Bodies powers to stop the use of unfair standard terms, if necessary by obtaining a court injunction. Ultimately only a court can decide whether a term is unfair.

Silk

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative wrote: »

In your own words Silk, we are going above and beyond the legal requirements of the DSR because our phones are only supplied with a contract already active and therefore we aren't even obligated to provide DSR returns at all

Ben,
You sell phones over the internet and by phone ...you don't have a shop so you have to abide by DSR's

What do you mean the contracts are already "active" ....I thought that we were talking about inserting the sim makes the contract active ??????
Where do I say "you are going above and beyond legal requirements by the way" ??????

Silk

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Silk .

I quoted from the government site on Distance Selling.

Yes GD I know and if you look I had already quoted the DSR's earlier in the thread

Please understand, I am not supporting this exemption, only telling you that if you advise anyone that they can use the sim to test the phone within the 7 day limit, rather than another old sim, they have lost their rights to cancel the service and call the deal off in law

GD I'm not advising anyone to use the sim card !
What I am saying is that for those who have done so it is not the end of it

Originally Posted by Guys Dad
However, if a network is prepared to give a customer the right to cancel within 7 days after using a sim in writing, then any reseller should be prepared to accept this, but the concession should be sought by the customer's efforts from the network, rather than the dealer having to take their chances and spend time on changes-of-mind or customer errors. Faulty hardware or reception from the network not matching their published level are, of course, exceptions.

I agree GD,
The problem here seems to be that they will go to any lengths to avoid cancelation as it seems greed is far more important than fairness and reutation.
Reception problems don't seem to help when you look at this poor soul who got caught out
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-internet/221708-legally-where-do-i.html

Looks like the only option is to be prepared to go to court to resolve the issues

Mobiles.co.uk_company_representative

Guys_Dad wrote: »

If that is the case, in post #12, Stuartmroberts received a returns number from mobiles.co.uk. Are you saying that Vodafone are, therefore, making you pay for the contract period or has the service been cancelled, given they work to rule, no exception.

And, if I could be bothered to search - which I can't - was there not another MSE member whose network contract was cancelled after time - possibly even Silk??

I can't comment specifically on other people's returns but yes, sometimes the only option is to buy the contract out.

Regards,