economy radiator company

LittleVermin

TimAllcot22 wrote: »

Hi Cardew and gang,

Thanks for your replies...certainly food for thought. I am the husband, Tim, I am a University lecturer (Law with Banking- not electronics or anything useful! haha!) Now not to sound too rude, but what qualifies people to give detailed opinions on this forum? Mainly Mr/Mrs Cardew. I have read through, and it seems to us both to be rather detailed and informative and we wondered whether you are a gaas engineer or indeed work for an oil heating company? Just a suggestion. Moreover, how can anyone trust what is said on any kind of Forum? How do we know what you are saying is true, unbiased advice? I could be a 6 year old from India for all you know. Cardew could be a 12 year old girl with a grudge against electric heating. My point is simple - How can we take these forums seriously?

I look forward to the stream of angry replies from 'qualified' individuals. I find it very entertaining indeed.

Tim,
you may indeed be "a 6 year old from India" or a "University lecturer", but whichever it is I do find difficulties in following your reasoning.

I trust we have common ground in:
1) that comparative heating costs can be estimated (the figures from the Nottingham Energy Partnership are often quoted on this forum - see here. This has a tie-up with Nottingham University, I believe).
2) the Advertising Standards Authority is, indeed, authoritative (see here for its adjudication on the advertising claims made for Rointe Heaters)
3) the laws of thermodynamics are well established, and apply both in the lab and in the 'real world'.

Cardew may indeed be a 12 year old girl, or the Chartered Electrical Engineer s/he claims to be BUT please indicate one of his posts which, in your opinion, indicates
1) he has a "grudge against electrical heating"
2) he might be "a gaas engineer or indeed work for an oil heating company".

TimAllcot22 wrote: »

I am massively concerned by the legal implications that surround this website and posts in it. ..............I have spoken with fellow lecturers and we are in agreement that there is a underlining concern with websites such as this, and we are all eager to here what MSE has to say in response.
.....

I think you will find that MSE is concerned about the legal implications of posts on the forum. No doubt you have read ML and team's words on this matter? I can assure you that the "Report" button is frequently used!

I note that you have discussed the forum with your colleagues: maybe you could post one of the codes for the courses you teach on? This will still preserve your anonymity, of course.

Cardew

TimAllcot22 wrote: »

I am massively concerned by the legal implications that surround this website and posts in it.

I have in fact contacted the site adminstrator with my concerns regarding this thread and threads like it. What I have read in here is close to Libel (slander). I believe that there is some rather huge gaps in legislation that allow websites like this to exist, where people fundamentally say whatever they like about something they are most probably not qualified to comment on. Like my statements, everything you read on here is opinion and only opinion.

I am sure I am not alone with my concerns. I have spoken with fellow lecturers and we are in agreement that there is a underlining concern with websites such as this, and we are all eager to here what MSE has to say in response.

I will post here for all to read once they have replied.

All the best Cardew and to you all.

I could understand anyone with a vested interest in marketing these heaters wanting free rein to praise products with no fear of contradiction. However why would you be 'massively concerned' as a University lecturer?

Take your initial post on this forum:

My partner and I bought some economy radiators, not from the Economy Radiator Company, but from Farho. Now I must say they work incredibly well, and are actually as cheap as our gas system used to be, in fact in summer it is cheaper because we never turn them on.

The heat is good quality heat, not dry, not moist, just perfect. The thermostat works as it is supposed to, and only uses power from the mains when the room temp drops down to less than the temp the missus has set them to. We have a 4 bedroom house, 1 lounge, 1 kitchen, 1 dining room, 1 study and 1 family bathroom. It cost us last year £42 a month to heat our ENTIRE house. Anyone who says this heating is a con, is an idiot.

We are annoyed that we did not go to the economy radiator company as they have a cheaper product which looks exaclty the same, and they are pleasant to deal with over the phone. Farho are expensive, but very good. We can recommend this type of heating 100%.

Cardew's comments have NO evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you like I'll happily post a copy of our bill up here.

Strange post for a 'University Lecturer' IMO.

As said above, do you not feel Martin has legal advice about the Forum's content?

Perhaps you should read other forums on MSE and see the comments aimed at specific companies - Banks, Utility companies, Supermarkets etc.

Perhaps you can point to the posts in this thread that are 'close to Libel (slander).'

TimAllcot22

Unfortunately my first post was from my pregnant and somewhat hormonal partner. (She has since calmed down, and we have a wonderful little boy to add to the equation!) After reading the initial post (thanks Cardew), I can see your point.

I have had a interesting response to my enquiry, it seems the legality of MSE is valid, for now. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a website where retailers could post about customers?

I don't think I wish to waste anymore time on websites like this.

I bid you all well wishes.

Tim.

grahamc2003

A little lax with security Tim, letting your wife post under your name. Why did your wife refer to hearself as 'the missus' and not 'I'? Strange.

The thermostat works as it is supposed to, and only uses power from the mains when the room temp drops down to less than the temp the missus has set them to.

As to retailers posting about customers - well they do! I've read posts from electricity supplier staff about customers, I don't see anything wrong or improper or even unusal at all in that. Aiui, business people can post on here if they declare who they are instead of pretending to be oh-so-very-happy customers. (but that's just my perception, best to check with the mse people if it is correct).

For my part, I'd love the MD of Rointe/eco heating/finned heaters plc/ or any other such company to post here and face questioning regarding their product and claims. I'd even go further and say they have a moral right to reply to posts critical of their claims. Who knows, they may really think their claims are true(!), and posters here plus the ASA are misinformed.

KJW46

I'm buying a flat which has horrible storage heaters I'd like to replace but where I can't get a gas connection. I often come to the MSE forums to look for friendly advice, and was really disappointed that a place where people go for help has turned into something so angry and petty.

I am posting this in case anyone like me comes along wanting to be pointed towards some advice and not to feel like they've walked in on a bar fight.

I found this on the Energy Saving Trust site, who I hope people will agree is fair and independent:

***

Upgrading your electric storage heaters
If you cannot install a whole new central heating system, then you could install new, more controllable storage heaters, together with improved controls. New storage heaters can be quite pricey, but can be cheaper to install than central heating, and you don’t have to replace them all at once.

Modern slimline fan-assisted storage heaters are better insulated, so are better able to store heat until you want it. Their heat output is more controllable, so you can heat a room up more quickly or keep it cool if you’re not using it. And modern controls can automatically set the input and output settings, based on your preferred room temperature, the actual room temperature and even the temperature outside. Systems that do all of this are sometimes known as Celect type controls.

Modern storage heaters vary considerably in price, but expect to pay more than £100 each to have them installed. Once you have replaced all your old heaters with fan assisted models and Celect type controls you could expect to save around £150 per year on your electricity bills.

***

Don't think I'll be coming back to MSE forums after this.

LittleVermin

KJW46 wrote: »

I'm buying a flat which has horrible storage heaters I'd like to replace but where I can't get a gas connection. I often come to the MSE forums to look for friendly advice, and was really disappointed that a place where people go for help has turned into something so angry and petty.

I am posting this in case anyone like me comes along wanting to be pointed towards some advice and not to feel like they've walked in on a bar fight.

I found this on the Energy Saving Trust site, who I hope people will agree is fair and independent:

***

<snip - see below!>

Don't think I'll be coming back to MSE forums after this.

Welcome to MSE!

Thanks for cutting and pasting the advice from EST. I realise you couldn't put in the link so here it is:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/In-your-home/Heating-and-hot-water/Improving-electric-systems

I hope EST won't mind me cutting and pasting the whole of the page. Here it is:

Improving electric systems


Electricity is the most expensive and carbon-intensive heating fuel available in the UK. The preferred option for anyone with storage heaters is to replace them with a boiler or heat pump, with radiators or underfloor heating. This can cost a considerable amount to install but can save money in the long term.
You could switch to a conventional fuel like gas or oil. A new gas boiler will typically cost around £2,500 plus the cost of the radiators, but you could cut the cost of your heating bill by nearly half and save over £500 a year.
If you don’t have a gas supply to your house but it is available nearby, you may be eligible for a grant towards the cost of having a connection put in. Otherwise you could install an oil or LPG boiler and fuel tank. Running costs will be higher than gas but probably lower than electric heating.
Or you could switch to a renewable heating system like a heat pump or wood boiler. This will cost you more than a conventional system but you could get payments from the government over the lifetime of the system. Find out more about renewable heating systems.
Controls for electric storage heaters

If you cannot get rid of your storage heaters right now, then you need to get a good understanding of how to use the controls, so that you can keep warm without wasting energy and making your bills even higher.
Check out the thermostats and controls you can use with storage heaters to save energy.
If this all seems a bit too complicated, you might prefer a more advanced control system. For that you will need to think about…

(as already quoted by KJW46)


Upgrading your electric storage heaters
If you cannot install a whole new central heating system, then you could install new, more controllable storage heaters, together with improved controls. New storage heaters can be quite pricey, but can be cheaper to install than central heating, and you don’t have to replace them all at once.

Modern slimline fan-assisted storage heaters are better insulated, so are better able to store heat until you want it. Their heat output is more controllable, so you can heat a room up more quickly or keep it cool if you’re not using it. And modern controls can automatically set the input and output settings, based on your preferred room temperature, the actual room temperature and even the temperature outside. Systems that do all of this are sometimes known as Celect type controls.

Modern storage heaters vary considerably in price, but expect to pay more than £100 each to have them installed. Once you have replaced all your old heaters with fan assisted models and Celect type controls you could expect to save around £150 per year on your electricity bills.

***
I hope you'll have noticed that people have commented in these threads that modern storage heaters are vastly better (e.g. more controllable) than ones from 20, 30, 40 years ago. But many - most? - of the electrical heaters being promoted as 'economical' use full-price day-time electricity ... so the very first part of the EST page applies (my bold):

Electricity is the most expensive and carbon-intensive heating fuel available in the UK. The preferred option for anyone with storage heaters is to replace them with a boiler or heat pump, with radiators or underfloor heating. This can cost a considerable amount to install but can save money in the long term.


^^^
PS the good advice you quoted from EST has just been quoted in the "Anyone used Rointe heaters?" thread here - so thanks, again. Rointe, Economy Radiator Company, Ducasa, Farho, intelliheat, suka, etc, etc have all been mentioned on MSE (e.g. here in "Am I just being thick or is this a [TEXT DELETED BY FORUM TEAM]? (economy radiator company)" and here). And Rointe has been the subject of an adverse Advertising Standard Authority adjudication for its misleading claims (see here).

It's a pity you cannot get gas for your flat. I presume also that much of the useful heating cost comparisons on the Nottingham Energy Partnership website (here) won't be useful for you, though it may be for others reading this thread. NEP is tied into both Nottingham University and Nottingham Trent University so I expect it's both fair and independent, just like EST.

Cardew

KJW46 wrote: »

I'm buying a flat which has horrible storage heaters I'd like to replace but where I can't get a gas connection. I often come to the MSE forums to look for friendly advice, and was really disappointed that a place where people go for help has turned into something so angry and petty.

I am posting this in case anyone like me comes along wanting to be pointed towards some advice and not to feel like they've walked in on a bar fight.

I found this on the Energy Saving Trust site, who I hope people will agree is fair and independent:

***

Upgrading your electric storage heaters
If you cannot install a whole new central heating system, then you could install new, more controllable storage heaters, together with improved controls. New storage heaters can be quite pricey, but can be cheaper to install than central heating, and you don’t have to replace them all at once.

Modern slimline fan-assisted storage heaters are better insulated, so are better able to store heat until you want it. Their heat output is more controllable, so you can heat a room up more quickly or keep it cool if you’re not using it. And modern controls can automatically set the input and output settings, based on your preferred room temperature, the actual room temperature and even the temperature outside. Systems that do all of this are sometimes known as Celect type controls.

Modern storage heaters vary considerably in price, but expect to pay more than £100 each to have them installed. Once you have replaced all your old heaters with fan assisted models and Celect type controls you could expect to save around £150 per year on your electricity bills.

***

Don't think I'll be coming back to MSE forums after this.

I don't understand your post.

This thread is not about storage heaters. If you don't have gas then Storage heating is a viable heating system - particularly with the more modern heaters.

The criticisms of storage heaters is simply that they do 'leak' heat during the day(even the latest models - albeit they are better than the older types) and to a certain extent you have to plan ahead. e.g. no point in having them on fully if you are away for the weekend.

This thread(and others) is about hugely overpriced 'normal' radiators that are marketed by implying they give out more heat for the money than 'inferior' radiators.

By and large the 'angry' posts seem to come from people with a vested interest in marketing these products; or bought and are defending their choice.

redkite89

I to live in a flat with electric heating as the only option. I have the older type storage heaters which do a reasonable job of heating the 2 bed flat. Usually it's only on the coldest days that I need extra heating.

A neighbour has just had the Economy Radiator Company panel radiators fitted to replace her storage heaters and they are certainly much more appealing on the eye. Let's face it, for many people design is an important element when choosing a product for the home, I'm afraid a £30 oil filled radiator just wouldn't cut the mustard. I've no idea what they cost the neighbour, but looking on the ERC website they appear to be in the £300+ range, which seem to compare with similar products from Argos.
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4110374.htm

The flat was certainly nice and warm when I visited, but of course it how much they cost to run that really matters and I have no information on that at the moment. They changed from economy 7 to a flat rate 24 hour tariff.

It's interesting that the Economy Radiator Company seem to imply that Economy 7 is a mathematical "sleight of hand" with the peak tariff being over inflated, to quote them, "Be under no illusion whatsoever this is a "mathematical sleight of hand", you will NOT save money using these types of tariffs.".

So there you go, I thought they looked great, they are certainly much more controllable and can be multi programmed but I have no idea what the running costs are, that will no doubt be found out in few months time. I like most people on this website would take with a pinch of salt all the claims on the sellers website.
http://www.economy-radiators.com/electric-tariffs.html

bobmedley

Highlight of their website;

“To date not one GENUINE complaint”……………………………………….

Apart from the two from the Advertising Standards Authority:p

LittleVermin

redkite89 wrote: »

I to live in a flat with electric heating as the only option. I have the older type storage heaters which do a reasonable job of heating the 2 bed flat. Usually it's only on the coldest days that I need extra heating.

A neighbour has just had the Economy Radiator Company panel radiators fitted to replace her storage heaters and they are certainly much more appealing on the eye. Let's face it, for many people design is an important element when choosing a product for the home, I'm afraid a £30 oil filled radiator just wouldn't cut the mustard. I've no idea what they cost the neighbour, but looking on the ERC website they appear to be in the £300+ range, which seem to compare with similar products from Argos.
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4110374.htm

The flat was certainly nice and warm when I visited, but of course it how much they cost to run that really matters and I have no information on that at the moment. They changed from economy 7 to a flat rate 24 hour tariff.
..<snip>
So there you go, I thought they looked great, they are certainly much more controllable and can be multi programmed but I have no idea what the running costs are, that will no doubt be found out in few months time. I like most people on this website would take with a pinch of salt all the claims on the sellers website.
http://www.economy-radiators.com/electric-tariffs.html

The link you gave for Argos was for a Calortec radiator - and here's a thread about Calortec ... from 2009: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2143673 ...so they are another over-priced make. Look back in Argos and there are (of course) cheaper electric radiators.

On the design and controllability criteria I think you are comparing chalk with cheese when you compare your old storage heaters with your neighbour's new ECR jobs. The whizzy ECR jobs will look pretty dated in 10/20 years' time ... then in 30-40 they may be the height of retro fashion?

I hope someone will post about their experience with modern storage heaters.