UK population 'to rise to 71.6m'

Afriend_2

misskool wrote: »

There are a large number of rich Chinese, the gap between the rich and the poor is very wide.

The aspirations of the poor makes them work harder to earn money and better their lives. They are innovative and driven. The world is being run by China by proxy. Look at all the goods you use and the clothes you buy. Where is it made?

I agree with what you have said. I still maintain that importing millions of people into a populous country is unlikely to increase the wealth of the countries population, unless they're all named Roman Abramovich.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Chantalle wrote: »

please retract the accusation of racism, it is unwarranted as I have not mentioned race once.

Your sort never do.....

But when you state that immigration leads to "cultural and social damage", it's pretty clear what you mean.;)

Cleaver

Chantalle wrote: »

or we could just train our own people...?

We do. But we don't have enough people who either want to do it or are capable to do it.

A couple of years ago we changed the GP contract so that they didn't have to cover out of hours in A&E departments. And all of them decided not to. Who, in the main, covered the shifts? Foreign doctors, because no one else wanted to do those shifts. It's often nothing to do with training our 'own' people (by the way, I don't care what the nationality or race a medical professional is, I just want them to be good), it comes down to who is willing to do what.

Chantalle wrote: »

Instead of relying on foreign labour and other short term 'fixes' we should be sorting out our country by getting proper training courses going and getting all the lazy and idle people working instead of them saying they are too good to sweep roads etc and letting a Pole or a Siamese do it.

Why would businesses want that? You have a choice between, as you put it, lazy and idle people (who may happen to be 'our own') being forced to do jobs they clearly don't want to do, or a foreign person who really wants the the job and will work hard and be industrious. The hard working person would be chosen every time.

And what does "sorting out our country" mean? We have training courses, job centres, back to work schemes and dozens of other back to work programmes coming out of our ears. For a variety of reasons we have a small minority of lazy, workshy people in this country. I'm more than happy for foreign, hard working people coming and living here, doing jobs well, paying their taxes and generally adding to society.

Edit: Sorry, just wanted to also add that the idea of using people from other countries to do jobs in our country is not a 'short term fix' as you describe it. It's a long term global trend. Our world is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Millions of Chinese graduates every year, multi-national corporations operating in every corner of the globe, companies just wanting the best employees wherever they are from; basically you need to wake up and smell the 21st Century. Be good at your job, or someone better than you, or willing to do it cheaper than you, will take it from you. It's called competition and it's a pretty good thing in the main.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Chantalle wrote: »

or we could just train our own people...?
.

:eek:

You still don't get it, do you?

How are our "own people" going to feel about a tax burden of 33% National Insurance contributions plus 20% to 50% Income tax?

Because that's what it would require to move the pension burden forward by two generations, as you suggest.

How good would your lifestyle be if you paid 83% of your income to the government to support millions of 85 year olds?

Good grief, it's like talking to a 2 year old.....:rolleyes:

lostinrates

Chantalle wrote: »

Pole or a Siamese do it.

Strikes me as very catty. I'm not sure what polecats are good for, but I can catagorically state Siamese cats are useless at sweeping, they are reasonably good at light dusting. Iwonder what people from Thailand would identify as being their stereotypical UK job?

Cleaver

Chantalle. A quick question in the form of a scenario if you're still about. Let's say you're a small business owner and run a cafe. You're doing well selling your English brekkies, sandwiches and coffees and making a good profit. So well in fact that you need hired help. You put an advert out, £6 an hour for a full time worker to help you out.

Alina answers your advert. She moved here from Poland a year ago and her English seems great for someone who's only been here 12 months. Back in Poland she actually worked as a chef in a restaurant and is desparate for a job here, especially as she's been turned down for a few, possibly on the basis that she's a Pole and it comes with some stigma. You chat to her for 15 minutes and realise that she's pleasant, eager to work and you just know that her smile would be popular with the customers. You decide you might give her a go. Alina is delighted and extremely grateful. She promises that you won't regret the decision and offers to come in early on her first day to help you out and get started.

But wait. A lady from the Job Centre gives you a call. She is ringing about the "Let's Get The Lazy To Work Programme" which gets the British lazy and workshy back in to employment. She's got a 24 year old kid called Darren who's currently on the dole but is now being forced back in to employment. He's been in a bit of trouble and actually did a couple of months inside for nicking a car. He's a good lad deep down, but years of neglect at home means that he has a real mean streak and he dropped out of school at 15. He turns up at your cafe because "the f*cking job centre sent me." He looks, bored, uninterested and says he "ain't doing no cleaning sh*t". You see a tattoo of a swallow on his wrist and wonder how that will do down with your customers. He starts rolling up a fag with his yellow, stained fingers.

It's your money, your business, your profits. Who would you take on?

Thrugelmir

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Immigrants come in all levels of skill, and can earn all levels of wages.

The concept that immigrants come here to undercut our wage structure and gain an unfair advantage in the labour market by doing so is an artificial construct, created by those of poor ability seeking an unfair advantage for themselves by limiting competition for labour.

We employ people from all over the world. We pay the same amount per job role no matter the race, ethnicity, or national origin of the employee. To do otherwise would be illegal, not to mention immoral.

Immigrants can and do however compete for jobs based on ability, attitude, and the desire to work hard and better themselves. If those qualities are lacking in some sections of the indigenous population, it is hardly the immigrants fault....

I find myself totaly in agreement with your comments (for once ). Spot on.

If the majority of the population of this country were to delve back into there ancestory. Many would find that they themselves are nth generation immigrants. Thats what in many ways makes this country what it is.

Many of the Asian community that settled some years back . Have gone from running corner shops to building sizable businesses that contribute a great deal to the British economy.

Thrugelmir

Cleaver wrote: »

Chantalle. A quick question in the form of a scenario if you're still about. Let's say you're a small business owner and run a cafe. You're doing well selling your English brekkies, sandwiches and coffees and making a good profit. So well in fact that you need hired help. You put an advert out, £6 an hour for a full time worker to help you out.

Alina answers your advert. She moved here from Poland a year ago and her English seems great for someone who's only been here 12 months. Back in Poland she actually worked as a chef in a restaurant and is desparate for a job here, especially as she's been turned down for a few, possibly on the basis that she's a Pole and it comes with some stigma. You chat to her for 15 minutes and realise that she's pleasant, eager to work and you just know that her smile would be popular with the customers. You decide you might give her a go. Alina is delighted and extremely grateful. She promises that you won't regret the decision and offers to come in early on her first day to help you out and get started.

But wait. A lady from the Job Centre gives you a call. She is ringing about the "Let's Get The Lazy To Work Programme" which gets the British lazy and workshy back in to employment. She's got a 24 year old kid called Darren who's currently on the dole but is now being forced back in to employment. He's been in a bit of trouble and actually did a couple of months inside for nicking a car. He's a good lad deep down, but years of neglect at home means that he has a real mean streak and he dropped out of school at 15. He turns up at your cafe because "the f*cking job centre sent me." He looks, bored, uninterested and says he "ain't doing no cleaning sh*t". You see a tattoo of a swallow on his wrist and wonder how that will do down with your customers. He starts rolling up a fag with his yellow, stained fingers.

It's your money, your business, your profits. Who would you take on?

The British employer would take on the Polish lady at £6 per hour rather than pay a rate which her skills deserved. Knowing that after a few months she would move on and another would turn up.

A short sighted materialistic view, where profit comes first unfortunately.

ruggedtoast

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The British employer would take on the Polish lady at £6 per hour rather than pay a rate which her skills deserved. Knowing that after a few months she would move on and another would turn up.

A short sighted materialistic view, where profit comes first unfortunately.

And thats exactly it. The government unofficially relies on constant immigration to suppress wages. No one at the bottom ever gets a toe hold because as soon as they get into a situation where they can ask for more money someone else arrives off the plane who will work for the same or less.

All this is doing is creating an enormous disenfranchised under class of people who's children end up bitter, disoriented and marginalised.

There are large areas of East London which are now in excess of 70% unemployment for working age men.

Thrugelmir

ruggedtoast wrote: »

And thats exactly it. The government unofficially relies on constant immigration to suppress wages. No one at the bottom ever gets a toe hold because as soon as they get into a situation where they can ask for more money someone else arrives off the plane who will work for the same or less.

All this is doing is creating an enormous disenfranchised under class of people who's children end up bitter, disoriented and marginalised.

There are large areas of East London which are now in excess of 70% unemployment for working age men.

No not the Government. We are talking about a cultural issue. Where the rich/poor divide gets wider. Something which in the credit boom over the past 12 years has a great deal to answer for.

If you could borrow money , you made money.

If you couldn't then you didn't.