UK population 'to rise to 71.6m'

misskool

LauraW10 wrote: »

Why doesn't he just say that"Londoner's need a steady supply of low paid servants" which is what he obviously means. The Polish woman is just the modern version of the Victorian servant in the capital. And just maybe the white females from Barking and Burnley have too much self-respect to wipe the bottoms and clean the toilets of London's finest.

If it's a job that pays money, you would rather be on the dole than take it because you would have to wipe bottoms and clean toilets?

I am highly qualified but while being a student, I have worked an interesting variety of jobs including and not limited to being a lifeguard and a hotel chambermaid. It's all about wanting to be self sufficient and making the best of yourself. You move from your situation and work your way up.

You do not just waltz into your first job and get the best salary and the cushy position. People have just been conned into over expectation of what their skills should pay.

Sapphire

fc123 wrote: »

How would you forcefully make people better themselves and become productive citizens?

I know of a quite a few immigrants who started out working in low pay jobs, they got their English up to scratch and are now setting up their own enterprises, getting promoted etc etc. No-one forced them to do it though...so how can you force the UK born to do the similar?

Not being anatagonistic or anything just interested as I can't see how you can make people become motivated and driven just with a Govt policy.

By 'forcefully', I did not mean using physical force, of course. I meant that there should be some scheme to make them get employment – removal of benefits, for example, to those who are physically able-bodied, so that they would be forced to take jobs that may not pay very much, but would enable them to survive. This could include jobs that are currently being done by immigrants. There are millions on benefits at the taxpayer's expense.

I feel that more than one generation has been lost due to the closure of manufacturing firms and the loss of heavy industry (as well as the mechanization of farming, which started way back in the 1930s or before), and the failure of government to tackle this problem. To get these people into work would at least give them some self-respect, knowing they are doing something productive in society. Everyone needs to be employed to be fulfilled – even if it is in a job that is considered menial – and it is not surprising that people who have no self-respect become 'chavs'. Unfortunately, this problem has been so prolonged that it will take strong action in order for it to be resolved.

But mass uncontrolled immigration of the sort that has taken place under the labour 'government' is wrong.

misskool

Sapphire wrote: »

By 'forcefully', I did not mean using physical force, of course. I meant that there should be some scheme to make them get employment – removal of benefits, for example, to those who are physically able-bodied, so that they would be forced to take jobs that may not pay very much, but would enable them to survive. This could include jobs that are currently being done by immigrants. There are millions on benefits at the taxpayer's expense.

I feel that more than one generation has been lost due to the closure of manufacturing firms and the loss of heavy industry (as well as the mechanization of farming, which started way back in the 1930s or before), and the failure of government to tackle this problem. To get these people into work would at least give them some self-respect, knowing they are doing something productive in society. Everyone needs to be employed to be fulfilled – even if it is in a job that is considered menial – and it is not surprising that people who have no self-respect become 'chavs'. Unfortunately, this problem has been so prolonged that it will take strong action in order for it to be resolved.

But mass uncontrolled immigration of the sort that has taken place under the labour 'government' is wrong.

The government has many schemes in place to help train workers and also cut their benefits if they don't work.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/government_employment_schemes.htm

They have also outsourced their employment programme (http://www.mya4e.com/ as seen on Benefit Busters on Channel 4).

You cannot force people who don't want to work back into employment.

Sapphire

misskool wrote: »

The government has many schemes in place to help train workers and also cut their benefits if they don't work.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/government_employment_schemes.htm

They have also outsourced their employment programme (http://www.mya4e.com/ as seen on Benefit Busters on Channel 4).

You cannot force people who don't want to work back into employment.

If they were hungry enough and didn't have it so easy, they would work.

As mentioned, there is at least one generation of people in some areas that has never worked, and probably neither have their parents. They need to be properly educated to learn a sense of responsibility to themselves and to society. It is a scandal that these people are being wasted and shunted aside. Then we tut-tut at and are offended by the fact that they turn to drunken and disorderly behaviour (etc.)...

lostinrates

misskool wrote: »

I have worked an interesting variety of jobs i....

me too, and I loved it. When I had my own business I tended to dump everything into it, so worked other jobs for spending money /cashflow. These experiences, even the ''menial'' ones all had their own upsides: even if it were just some pay.

Sapphire

lostinrates wrote: »

me too, and I loved it. When I had my own business I tended to dump everything into it, so worked other jobs for spending money /cashflow. These experiences, even the ''menial'' ones all had their own upsides: even if it were just some pay.

BTW, that's how I started out, too. It was very valuable and interesting experience that has helped me no end throughout my working career.

fc123

Sapphire wrote: »

If they were hungry enough and didn't have it so easy, they would work.

As mentioned, there is at least one generation of people in some areas that has never worked, and probably neither have their parents. They need to be properly educated to learn a sense of responsibility to themselves and to society. It is a scandal that these people are being wasted and shunted aside. Then we tut-tut at and are offended by the fact that they turn to drunken and disorderly behaviour (etc.)...

With respect Saphire..this is a seperate debate to the immigration one.

As I understand it, places like Hereford needed labour to pick the crops and couldn't get any UK people to do the work..so hire EE labour.

You could see it as this; welfare state enabled peope not to do certain low paid work....so it didn't get done (and couldn't be done in China or wherever as was local based) so, immigration fillled the gap.

It's a bit chicken and egg.

I will sum it up with a member of OH's family who hasn't needed to work for 2 decades.......she now uses the immi arguement as the reason she doesn't work.....you know...can't get a job bla bla but, the reality is, the immis came in and did the jobs she wouldn't do. Now they have moved onwards and upwards and she is stalemate.

A few years ago, we worked out she would've needed £500pwk in hand to be better off...and she is unskilled. However as kids get older and leave home, her income just goes down and down.

Hard for MIL to accept as she was an auxiliary nurse for years and her pay packet was a digrace for the work she did....the hospice work was the hardest @ £4 odd per hour.

StevieJ

fc123 wrote: »

With respect Saphire..this is a seperate debate to the immigration one.

As I understand it, places like Hereford needed labour to pick the crops and couldn't get any UK people to do the work..so hire EE labour.

That was our job as kids (backbreaking :eek:) also a bit of golf caddying, I don't remember adults ever doing it though, are kids allowed to do that now

mbga9pgf

StevieJ wrote: »

That was our job as kids (backbreaking :eek:) also a bit of golf caddying, I don't remember adults ever doing it though, are kids allowed to do that now

Well, if they didnt pay benefits, they could always let the scroungers who were working the fields keep the rejects.... They could then go back to their scummy other worksy mates and trade reject veggies.

Thus solving the great unwasheds' issues with obesity too.

Things need to get a whole load tougher for those that dont contribute, and a whole load easier for those that do, especially those on low wages.

Sapphire

fc123 wrote: »

With respect Saphire..this is a seperate debate to the immigration one.

As I understand it, places like Hereford needed labour to pick the crops and couldn't get any UK people to do the work..so hire EE labour.

You could see it as this; welfare state enabled peope not to do certain low paid work....so it didn't get done (and couldn't be done in China or wherever as was local based) so, immigration fillled the gap.

It's a bit chicken and egg.

I will sum it up with a member of OH's family who hasn't needed to work for 2 decades.......she now uses the immi arguement as the reason she doesn't work.....you know...can't get a job bla bla but, the reality is, the immis came in and did the jobs she wouldn't do. Now they have moved onwards and upwards and she is stalemate.

A few years ago, we worked out she would've needed £500pwk in hand to be better off...and she is unskilled. However as kids get older and leave home, her income just goes down and down.

Hard for MIL to accept as she was an auxiliary nurse for years and her pay packet was a digrace for the work she did....the hospice work was the hardest @ £4 odd per hour.

Yes, but this is not a separate debate – the two issues are intertwined. If the 'indigenous' population had to work, it would. One of my points was that it is too easy nowadays to decide that you won't work because you don't like the sound of a job. People never used to have the luxury of doing this – they had to work – and often in the most difficult conditions, e.g. down the mines, in the docks or in the shipbuilding yards – or they would have starved.

If these people worked, there would be no need for immigration, with the obvious troubles it has already bought, which will only grow as the immigrant population expands and even more people are allowed into the country.

Look after your own first, then think about helping the rest of the world...