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The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

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  • Dr.Shoe_2
    Dr.Shoe_2 Posts: 1,028 Forumite
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    Just what is wrong with companies using their ordinary area STD code? There are no ingress charges and most people have free national calls or free mobile minutes anyway. The excuse of having to change stationery etc. doesn't wash with me either.

    My firm has to replace consumed stationery 3 or 4 times a year and you normally get at least a year's notice if numbers change and you get a period of grace where you can use both anyway. If it's catalogues, you're changing them every year anyhow.

    Where a firm might move during that time then there is always the website and directory enquiries...
    [strike]-£20,000[/strike] 0!
  • scheming_gypsy
    scheming_gypsy Posts: 18,410 Forumite
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    i already answered that a month and a half ago,
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=2170160&postcount=24
  • technoboy_2
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    We always phone 0870 numbers on our mobiles - they are included in the inclusive calls on most O2 monthly plans (and orange OVP O2 plans), so we get a mobile deal (with full cashback) each year just to use for this purpose. This works for 0845 numbers too, but not 0871.

    Andrew
    I specifically joined O2 because they allow calls to 0870 numbers. Some older Orange tariffs have 0870s as inclusive minutes also. 0870s are described as 'hideous' in the article on this site. I disagree. They are only hideous when used by large companies to fleece customers. They are not hideous per se.
    0870s allow access to international callthrough services, chat lines etc.
    Those who opposed 0870s have succeeded in persuading ofcom to stop revenue to 0870 operators. This means the service that some of us use, from our mobile phones, will no longer be available to us. Instead they will use 0871 and other numbers that cost a packet to ring. Many 0870 services are providing very good, cheap, services. Those who objected to 0870s, per se, have done many of us a grave disservice.
  • DonnyDave
    DonnyDave Posts: 1,579 Forumite
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    technoboy wrote:
    Those who opposed 0870s have succeeded in persuading ofcom to stop revenue to 0870 operators. This means the service that some of us use, from our mobile phones, will, in around 18 months time, no longer be available to us. Instead they will use 0871 and other numbers that cost a packet to ring. Many 0870 services are providing very good, cheap, services. Those who objected to 0870s, per se, have done many of us a grave disservice.
    As a member of Say no to 0870 I am not against 0870 numbers per se. I have never stated this. I am of the opinion that clear pricing information would allow consumers to decide.

    In the case of dial through providers and pay as you go dial-up internet service providers 084x/087x numbers are appropriate, providing pricing information is given.

    This applies equally so to those call centres that use them, whether they be for customer services, complaints, new business or any other functionality, for bank and insurance companies and so on. The sticking point is the local and national rate lie with which these numbers have been sold by. It's no good shutting the horse after the horse has bolted. Quite clearly a market that has been established in a 'distorted' way and cannot become a 'fair' one by simply changing the name of the numbers and introducing 03 prefix.

    By this I mean that companies having taken root on 0845/0870 as equivalent geographically priced calls. Now the truth is coming out that this isn't correct, leaving customers to pay more than they do to call a geographical number.

    The calls terminate on fixed lines, so it would be reasonable to expect that they can be contacted at geographical rates. Of course, this sentence is just my opinion, so in a free market if other consumers decide different, then I'm sure that there will be businesses who will charge a premium over a normal phone call.

    Instead, the balance is that the vast majority are [effectively] charging premiums, whether that be split between the company's telco and the company or just to the telco. The scales
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,043 Forumite
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    technoboy wrote:
    I specifically joined O2 because they allow calls to 0870 numbers. Some older Orange tariffs have 0870s as inclusive minutes also. 0870s are described as 'hideous' in the article on this site. I disagree. They are only hideous when used by large companies to fleece customers. They are not hideous per se.
    0870s allow access to international callthrough services, chat lines etc.
    Those who opposed 0870s have succeeded in persuading ofcom to stop revenue to 0870 operators. This means the service that some of us use, from our mobile phones, will no longer be available to us. Instead they will use 0871 and other numbers that cost a packet to ring. Many 0870 services are providing very good, cheap, services. Those who objected to 0870s, per se, have done many of us a grave disservice.

    I cannot understand your logic here.

    You joined O2 to escape the 8 pence a minute charges. Nobody should be required to take action to evade charges that should not be there in the first place.

    Are you seriously arguing that because O2 users(for now) allow calls to 0870 numbers as inclusive minutes, we should not be critical of the whole 0870 scam?

    Many of us are not on O2, or even use a mobile phone, or are on a Pay as you go package.

    0845 numbers allow International callthrough services or there are scores of systems that allow cheap international calls.

    0870 numbers are a disgrace and the campaign to stop the scheme has huge merit
  • pricefighter
    pricefighter Posts: 2,829 Forumite
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    When 0870 rightly goes as far as revenue sharing is concerned etc and cheap Intl Call providers no longer offer it,your still be able to use the numerous 0844 dial through numbers that are available.Unless of course O2 decide to start charging to call them as they have recently done with 07744/07755.
    PF.
  • technoboy_2
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    Cardew wrote:
    I cannot understand your logic here.

    You joined O2 to escape the 8 pence a minute charges. Nobody should be required to take action to evade charges that should not be there in the first place.

    Are you seriously arguing that because O2 users(for now) allow calls to 0870 numbers as inclusive minutes, we should not be critical of the whole 0870 scam?

    Many of us are not on O2, or even use a mobile phone, or are on a Pay as you go package.

    0845 numbers allow International callthrough services or there are scores of systems that allow cheap international calls.

    0870 numbers are a disgrace and the campaign to stop the scheme has huge merit

    I didn't join O2 to escape 8p/minute charges because if I was not on O2 I could call via my old Orange contract off-peak or call peak for 4p/min via 18185 or via QX-dial.
    I joined O2 because, as they offer 0844,0845 and 0870 as inclusive minutes, they are giving better value for money and I am able to call these numbers when I am away from a landline. Additionally, it is possible to get various mobile contracts for either zero or a low overall outlay over the year - zero in my case - so the calls are literally free.
    It is wrong when companies, such as financial institutions and Sky for example, compel people to call via 0845 and 0870 numbers when they could give out a geographical number.
    However, when a service is being provided, for the premium paid, it is, in my opinion perfectly OK to use an 0870 number.
    If you look on sites such as cleverrates.co.uk you will see a mix of 08 numbers that can be called. 0870 has, effectively, in their case, been replaced by 0871. The advantage of 0871 is that they can be charged at different rates. However, this will cause even more confusion for the consumer. O2 charges 35p/minute at all times, BT charge a range of different prices. If, in future, companies adopt 0871 in place of 0870s you will have little idea how much is being charged, by landline companies, unless you have a price list for specific number strings.
    So, in short, calling 0870 could be swapped for 0871, costing everyone more and creating even more confusion. Alternatively, ofcom might insist on 09 numbers being used, which, again, have variable charges. At least with 0870 you knew how much you were being ripped off - with 0871 and 09 numbers, unless there is legislation to compel companies to make an announcement to callers, you'll be in the dark about what you are paying. Even so, if you are on BT or Telewest, you'll have to pay a minimum charge to find out the cost.
    What should have happend is that ofcom should have banned companies, who were not providing a net service to the caller, from using non-geographical numbers. Services such as callthroughs, chat lines, recorded information services, advice services etc. should be allowed to retain their revenue via 0870s as people have a real choice as to whether to call them. If you are with a bank, for example, you don't have a choice (unless you can find the geo number of course).
    In short, ofcom mucked it up totally for one sector in order to appease another. They really didn't put their brain into gear. They could have issued precise rules as to who could use revenue raising numbers. That way they would have satisfied everyone. Ofcom just haven't got the nouse to deal with these things effectively in my opinion.
  • DonnyDave
    DonnyDave Posts: 1,579 Forumite
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    technoboy wrote:
    If you look on sites such as cleverrates.co.uk you will see a mix of 08 numbers that can be called. 0870 has, effectively, in their case, been replaced by 0871. The advantage of 0871 is that they can be charged at different rates. However, this will cause even more confusion for the consumer. O2 charges 35p/minute at all times, BT charge a range of different prices. If, in future, companies adopt 0871 in place of 0870s you will have little idea how much is being charged, by landline companies, unless you have a price list for specific number strings.
    This has come about because of the failure of the regulator and not because of the efforts of groups like Say no to 0870!

    Any premium number should be charged at a premium above normal (geographical) rates, whatever they are. So O2 should be compelled to charge its geographical rate plus xp/min, where xp/min is the premium. It should be allowed to charge less than the premium if it wishes, but not above (unless it is clearly indicated).

    The fact that 0871 was chosen; being next to 0870 despite the fact that telephone codes were changed to increase numbering capacity leaves us asking the obvious question, why put them so close?

    The 0844 and 0871 (and even 090 to a certain extent) should be numbered according to call rate. But this would only be of benefit if all (or the majority of) providers were forced to charge the published rates. Instead, it's a hotch potch!
  • Victors_Bruvver
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    Just come off the phone from speaking with BG and I mentioned in passing to the advisor that it was thoughtful of them to supply such a service (INTERNET CALLBACK) as it usually took hours to get through on the O845 numbers, and guess what? She told me that all their 0845 numbers were local cost numbers at a penny a minute!
    Oh I do dispair!
  • vinylmusic
    vinylmusic Posts: 1,200 Forumite
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    Dr.Shoe wrote:
    Just what is wrong with companies using their ordinary area STD code? There are no ingress charges and most people have free national calls or free mobile minutes anyway. The excuse of having to change stationery etc. doesn't wash with me either.

    My firm has to replace consumed stationery 3 or 4 times a year and you normally get at least a year's notice if numbers change and you get a period of grace where you can use both anyway. If it's catalogues, you're changing them every year anyhow.

    Where a firm might move during that time then there is always the website and directory enquiries...
    I run a business online and as far as stationary goes I hardly use any.
    Changing anything on the website takes minutes at no cost at all
    I have business cards but hardly give any out these days.
    Online companies have no excuse
    They could put their landline numbers on their websites easily and change their stationary as it need to be updated

    Any excuses they make only shows that they are dragging their heels
    IWasLookingBackToSeeIfSheWasLookinBackToSeeIfIWasLookinBackAtHer.....
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