The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

scheming_gypsy

theloft wrote: »

Employ more staff if necessary to deal with their own CUSTOMERS - YES, but why does it have to be an 09** number, if it was a standard geographic number and the number was engaged, the calling costs would be zero.
Or have you got an axe to grind ?

no axes to grind but i work in telecoms for an insurance company so i know how call centres work.

You can't always have available staff, you can only forceast estimated call volumes and employ staff enough staff per shift to cover what you're expecting. if you over staff you have none productive staff that are being paid. Even when you do have the right amount of staff on each shift you can't forecast how long each individual call is going to last. Therefore you may still end up having to sit in a queue.

the options aren't to generate revenue as you're on the phone for longer they're there to ensure you get to an agent trained on the query / phone call.
Where i work, and many other call centres, use skill based routing and ACD (automatic call distribution). So when an agent is on available the call routes straight to their headset, no ringing and waiting for them to pick it up. It's answered for them. The skill based routing is where each agent is assigned a 'skill' for the product they're trained on or for what department they work in. You choose an option and it routes to that skill so you know that the call will be answered by somebody who can help you. This is also one of the reasons people may ask you to redial an 0870 number if you dial a different department. It's not because they don't want to help you or that they've been told to make you re-dial but because they're not trained and don't have an internal number to divert you to.

Also, where i work we use 0800 numbers for our own products but some of the clients we deal with use 0845 and 0870 numbers but all calls are treated with the same priorty at our end.
Again, i can't speak for all call centres but ours operates on an 80/20 service level as standard. that's 80% of calls answered within 20 seconds. This is how they forecast the staff required, to ensure we can answer that many calls withing that period but depending on situations, circumstances and weather (nature of the business) calls can be on hold for some time.

Like i've said, the company i work for uses 0800 numbers so i'm not defending companies using 084 / 7 numbers but explaining how the calls work once they reach the call centre and why they can't make sure they're enough staff for your call to be answered instantly.

also, regardless if you dial a geographical number or a none geographical number you're not going to get charged if it's engaged as the call hasn't connected.
Before anybody asks why calls can't be engaged if there's nobody available then it's not that easy. the company (as ours does) will have x amount of inbound lines on ISDN 30 lines (1 ISDN 30 trunk = 30 phone lines). If you have 2 ISDN 30 lines and 80 staff, 10 staff could be on breaks / lunch. 4 could be on toilet breaks, 6 could be working on 'offline' issues and aren't on available on their phone and 2 have gone to the printer / fax machine. The other 58 people are on calls and there are 2 more channels available for calls. these will queue but an others will receive an engaged tone.

theloft

Truepat wrote: »

A possibility
How are you going to put together a cost benefit for the additional staffing overheads though?
Where are you going to get additional revenue from to pay for them?

How about more satisfied customers who then recommend the company to others - goodwill goes a long way in retailing.

Truepat

theloft wrote: »

How about more satisfied customers who then recommend the company to others - goodwill goes a long way in retailing.

First you have to sell the product
if your product is no longer competitively priced you will lose out
The shelf price ticket is probably the most important deciding factor for customers
Reduced sales makes it even harder to justify increasing call centre staff

There is much more to running a business than simply caving in to idealistic customer demands
Doing so could cost you your business
You have to listen to both customers and share holders
Without both you will have no business to run
Business's exist for one reason and one reason only
To make somebody a profit

alan99_2

Another simple example
PC World uses a high rate premium line for support
Should they make that a freephone number and then charge another £50-100 on the retail price of a PC or another £20 for a printer whether or not you use it?
Not very MSE[/quote]

QUOTE
Business's exist for one reason and one reason only
To make somebody a profitQUOTE

Hi

This board is all about consumers saving money. Most on this board will go buy a "cheap" product from PC World or whoever , "discounted" by £50 to £100 and instead of spending all that dosh, 50 -£100 on scam rate phone calls will dial their geographic number 01/02 number found via a useful website sponsored by this board.

People also exist as a personal "business" ie not get into debt and save money (people on this board anyway) It is businesses trying to get away with what they can and the little man/woman in the street hitting back. Both surreptitiously , that is what 08* numbers are.



Power to the (savvy) consumer

Alan

theloft

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

no axes to grind but i work in telecoms for an insurance company so i know how call centres work.

A long and detailed explanation about call centres I agree. I have not quoted the whole thing for obvious reasons. Of course anyone employed in , running or using a call centre for their business, will defend them to the hilt. THE FACT REMAINS that ALL of the people (customers) who I have ever spoken to on the subject, all disagree vehemently with 0845/0870/1 numbers and as for call centres, yours may be efficient but the vast majority are understaffed and manned by low level employees (mostly because the wages are peanuts and you know what they say about that) and most people HATE them. Also companies not using call centres are using non-geographic numbers, and if you tell me this is not to raise revenue, I cannot agree.

bunking_off

Scheming gypsy provides a very clear description of the techniques used. To be honest, his place appears to be at the "simpler" end of the spectrum because the larger organisations commonly have the routing done within their telecom provider's network to multi-sites (e.g. the infuriatng bit where you press "1" to be irritated, "2" to be annoyed is done by the network, and call steered to one call centre or another according to what you select). It isn't wildly uncommon for you to end up at a UK or Indian callcentre according to your CLI triggering logic of whether you're a preferred customer. Also, a lot of places have dynamic links back to the network to flag how many call handling agents there are at a given moment, and the music on hold you get is network provided. I can only re-iterate that it's a fact, like it or not, that any revenue share doesn't cover the cost of running a callcentre. It is a questionnable point of whether companies should fund customer services from upfront retail pricing or by contribution from callers who need assistance, but to condemn all organisations that take the latter approach is IMHO unfair.

The end of the market I've worked in could skew my perspective a bit, but the vast vast majority of 08 traffic (excluding the last few bits of dial internet) is destined for callcentres. I wouldn't defend them as all being places staffed by highly educated & motivated staff, but in this service-industry oriented country we now live in, they're the new factories. Pay call centre staff £20/hour and you'll undoubtedly get more focussed individuals, but you'd also be out of business. I would state categorically that a lot of effort goes into hitting maximum efficiency.

People don't like paying for 0870 numbers, that's true. However, there's always a tension between what revenues a supplier wants to get and what a customer wishes to pay. There's an equilibrium point. If callers are aware of the call cost - and I wouldn't for one moment disagree with the need to sort that issue out - and still make the call then the equilibrium has been achieved. Some calls to 0870 are essential, but how many? DVLA - if you vehemently disagree with paying for the 0870 call then pay for a stamp on a letter instead. Sky - similar. PC World - pay for the petrol to harrangue them in store. The conclusion I'd reach is that from an economic standpoint customers don't particularly like them, but get sufficient utility to prevent them using alternate contact methods. Similarly, companies take the view that their customers don't sufficiently dislike 0870 enough to purchase from an alternate supplier...if they did lose customers they'd flick to 0800.

scheming_gypsy

theloft wrote: »

A long and detailed explanation about call centres I agree. I have not quoted the whole thing for obvious reasons. Of course anyone employed in , running or using a call centre for their business, will defend them to the hilt.

why? i go to work, they pay me, i pay my mortgage etc. I don't owe them my life, they didn't save me from drowning and if they get bored of me they'll find a way to get rid of them. I'm not going to defend my place of work for employing me especially as i think they treat their staff like sh*te.

THE FACT REMAINS that ALL of the people (customers) who I have ever spoken to on the subject, all disagree vehemently with 0845/0870/1 numbers and as for call centres, yours may be efficient but the vast majority are understaffed and manned by low level employees (mostly because the wages are peanuts and you know what they say about that)

totally agree. Our call centre staff are paid around 12k an hour and as the place is all about stats and efficiency the inbound staff have to be on available as long as possible. 'After call' work has to be kept to a minimum. I wouldn't do the work for what they pay.

Also companies not using call centres are using non-geographic numbers, and if you tell me this is not to raise revenue, I cannot agree.

Some / most do and some don't. My Dad has a small employment agency where different people will be on call in the evening. To handle the on-call the companies have to dial an 0700 number out of hours and this comes through to one phone in the office (i think. Not 100% sure how it works) which he puts on divert to the person on call.
The reason he uses an 0700 number is for the money but not to make a profit. When the caller calls the number it goes into the office and the office calls the on call person - with the office paying for that call.
Over the past few years he's barely making a profit and had to cut rates to keep customers due to competition and needs this extra income to cover the costs of the phone calls and to put towards payment for the person on call.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote: »

I can only re-iterate that it's a fact, like it or not, that any revenue share doesn't cover the cost of running a callcentre.

I agree it prob doesn't however the money it would normally cost a company to run the call centre is reduced due to the revenue so therefore this can increase profit for the company or it can be added to the cost of services we purchase. If the latter option is chosen then that could potentially mean not being competitive so I believe that companies use the revenue to reduce their costs and thus increase profits.

It is a questionnable point of whether companies should fund customer services from upfront retail pricing or by contribution from callers who need assistance, but to condemn all organisations that take the latter approach is IMHO unfair.

I partly agree with you here except that companies generally take the 087x route to get revenue without, in most cases, consumers being aware of the costs and they earn revenue from each call.

We all know if a company wanted to earn revenue to subsidise customer services, etc and be honest/upfront with customers then they could choose a 09x even if it costs 15p/min or so. This option isn't really taken because companies are fully aware that their customers may complain because they know they're ringing a premium rate number hence why 087x is chosen to 'quietly' earn revenue. Even though in some cases it could actually be cheaper to ring the 09x instead of the 087x.

People don't like paying for 0870 numbers, that's true. However, there's always a tension between what revenues a supplier wants to get and what a customer wishes to pay. There's an equilibrium point. If callers are aware of the call cost - and I wouldn't for one moment disagree with the need to sort that issue out - and still make the call then the equilibrium has been achieved.

I agree here as well assuming you mean as well as transparent call costs, the customer is aware the company they're ringing is receiving revenue.

Some calls to 0870 are essential, but how many? DVLA - if you vehemently disagree with paying for the 0870 call then pay for a stamp on a letter instead. Sky - similar.

I disagree here. My first port of call when contacting a company is generally email not because it's free simply because it's easier for me to do it in my own time whenever I want however I've found in many cases my email is only quickly scanned and may not answer my queries, etc simply because they've not read it all or read it correctly, or they couldn't be bothered replying fully to answer my concerns.

So to say use snail mail (or email) may be more trouble than it's worth unless, I've found, the query is a very simple/basic one that I know wouldn't take them more than a few seconds to do. However, as I said, my emails aren't generally answered fully/correctly so I then end up having to ring or knowing from past experience they wont answer fully/correctly I just ring first to save the hassle and time wasted on email. Although I mention email, it does apply to snail mail as well except of course it takes companies longer (naturally) to write back.

theloft

bbb_uk wrote: »

So to say use snail mail (or email) may be more trouble than it's worth unless, I've found, the query is a very simple/basic one that I know wouldn't take them more than a few seconds to do. However, as I said, my emails aren't generally answered fully/correctly so I then end up having to ring .

Totally agree, in most cases emails are ignored and letters not answered, it doesn't matter how polite or how complaining you make them, they all tend to get the same treatment. The exception to this rule is food companies, whenever I have written or emailed them about a product it is usually answered courteously and promptly. So why can't manufacturers,wholesalers & retailers adopt the same values.

Adzha

Type numbers or businesses into
http://www.saynoto0870.com/

and it will look for any alternatives, eg. a free number :j

The site says:

The site lists many well known companies, and their equivalent geographical numbers.

Alternatives listed for 0800, 0808, 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 numbers.