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The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

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  • bbb_uk
    bbb_uk Posts: 2,108 Forumite
    I've said this many times before but i'll say it again...

    Yes, there may be reasons for using 08x numbers but the majority of businesses and gov depts, etc are using them to gain money (regardless of how it is spent) without in most cases us consumers knowing this.

    08x have been out for many, many years but it was only around the time that local and national geographical call prices were aligned (and generally lowered) that this then seemed to result in more revenue for telephone company owning the 08x number which they then passed some of this revenue back onto the company/gov dept using the 08x as "thank you" and incentive for using an 08x number.

    Since the advent of revenue share on 0845, 087x came apparent and increased then so did the use of these numbers because even to this day, many consumers still think they're local/national rate and have no idea that revenue sharing takes place.

    In essence, 08x numbers are just stealth premium rate numbers that companies/gov depts use to gain revenue without their customers knowing about it.

    If Ofcom were to announce to all consumers that 08x calls cost extra than geographcal calls (ie they're not local/national rate) and that the company/gov dept being called is most likely earning money from the call then I believe there would be a consumer outrage and many companies would have to think carefully their use of such numbers. Right now, however, they use these numbers mostly due to the fact that they can get away with earning revenue without many of their customers knowing about it.
  • bbb_uk wrote: »
    If Ofcom were to announce to all consumers that 08x calls cost extra than geographcal calls (ie they're not local/national rate) and that the company/gov dept being called is most likely earning money from the call then I believe there would be a consumer outrage and many companies would have to think carefully their use of such numbers. Right now, however, they use these numbers mostly due to the fact that they can get away with earning revenue without many of their customers knowing about it.
    Yes Yes Yes, it worth saying it until you are blue in the face. Keep on repeating it so that everyone is aware of it, and don't forget there are many companies out there that probably do not realise that their telecoms costs have increased many times over this last few years because the companies they are doing business are also using these 087x numbers.
    I have said at the outset that Ofcom should have made it a requirement that anyone who has these numbers should by law print alongside the number, not in a tiny font size but in a highlighted box, the true cost per minute for these calls and yes as bbb_uk states, also mention that a percentage of this money goes to that company.
  • Newbold
    Newbold Posts: 89 Forumite
    Truepat wrote: »
    Can I ask if you actually run a business or are you just guessing
    I run a business but not the sort that needs call centres
    I have many friends that run a variety of businesses and not one of them makes decisions that they think will lose them money

    Yes, I do run a business - as a business consultant, in fact, providing advice to clients on the efficient operation of their businesses.

    Nobody is going to be foolish enough to make decisions that they think will lose them money. But some people in business foolishly think that they can make money with 0870/0871 numbers. They can, of course, in the short term, but what they don't realise is that it costs them customer goodwill. And that customer goodwill, which any of your friends will tell you is one of the most valuable things in any business (along with the goodwill of the staff), is extremely easy to lose and very difficult to build up.

    The advice I give to all my clients is to avoid using these numbers and to seriously consider 0800. It's not worth saving a few pounds on customer service if you haven't got any customers left to service!
  • bunking_off
    bunking_off Posts: 1,264 Forumite
    OK to address some of the points raised. I have answered these in the past, but I guess it does no harm to re-iterate them.

    The situation that most business in America is done on 1-800 is really an accident of history. Freephone was launched in the USA way before there was any concept of Intelligent Network services on number ranges charged at other rates. The fragmented nature of the US market meant that it was incredibly difficult to have a charged for service at anything other than standard toll rates or free. This is, for example, why mobile services in the US are typically recipient party pays, versus the European setup where the caller picks up the additional costs of charging a mobile (the US situation is far better, IMHO, but it we had it we wouldn't have the penetration levels of mobile that we do in the UK, nor the nice deals with free handsets).

    Once freephone was established there and the norm, it was very difficult (sorry, impossible), for them on realising that in other countries corporates managed to get their customers to contribute to the cost of the call centres, to retrospectively introduce the approach in the USA. If the convention is that calls are free, it would be commercial suicide to charge your customers. Of course, customers do ultimately get charged for the calls...it's factored into other pricing....US companies are typically no more or less profitable than European ones.

    I do re-iterate what I said above about the choice between 0800/845/871 and the business models behind them - it has nothing to do with ripping customers off. I absolutely do think that companies should be mandated to provide pricing information alongside any advertising for these numbers. What I think is just plain daft is the situation where companies are being forced to change their numbers from 0870, then subsequently put pricing information alongside the 0871 number. That number change costs money, which has to come from somewhere (ultimately their customers)...wouldn't it have been easier just to mandate pricing information alongside 0870? Ofcom's hope is that companies will stick on 0870 and give up their revenue share. Believe me, looking at this from inside the industry the only companies you'll see using 0870 this time next year will be those who are so asleep they haven't noticed their revenue share has dried up.

    As to "companies profiting from 0870", we really do need to get a reality check here. Even companies paying minimum wage, or outsourcing to Bangalore, cannot run a callcentre seat on 5-7ppm revenue share and yield a profit. That includes playing Robbie Williams, Greensleeves or whatever music on hold irritates you in order to minimise time spent speaking to someone while maximising the call length...you simply cannot run these systems and make a profit on that kind of revenue share, and if you think you can, get into that business as you'll find a ready queue of companies wanting your services. What these companies are doing isn't profiteering per se, it's recovering (part of) the cost of running their call centre from the call costs. I don't have an issue with that, so long as the call pricing is transparent.

    State/government organisations are a special case. Clearly it's wrong that a GP's surgery should recover the cost of their PBX from their patients so it's quite right that they've been bounced off 0870. I've got more sympathy with the DVLA : they run a wider range of callcentre services than they ever did prior to revenue share, and they're entirely funded from the revenues. Indeed, via such things as cherished plate sales they're expected to be revenue generating. Faced with the loss of revenue share on 0870, if they don't move to 0871 the inevitable outcome is either that these facilities are stopped (not good), or they'll require state funding. Personally, I'd rather that such costs were picked up by those using it rather than from general taxation....nice call centre versus lower tax versus more hospital beds debate...not the place for that particular debate!
    I really must stop loafing and get back to work...
  • Truepat
    Truepat Posts: 3,278 Forumite
    Newbold wrote: »
    Yes, I do run a business - as a business consultant, in fact, providing advice to clients on the efficient operation of their businesses.
    That might explain it
    Those that can, do, those that can not become business consultants LOL
    Sorry, but I have had some very bad experiences with so called business consultants
    The advice I give to all my clients is to avoid using these numbers and to seriously consider 0800. It's not worth saving a few pounds on customer service if you haven't got any customers left to service!
    So the advice you would be giving is to raise the market price of the raw product
    In a competitive industry that could save a lot of money by removing the need for a call centre because your product is not selling so you have no customers to service

    Sales should be a definite 0800
    Support is best placed on 0871 with obvious pricing

    I still go with the analysis from bunking_off.
    Those needing a service should pay for it
    35, semi retired, sun, sand, sea, life is good
    When you are done moaning remember that there are people who would love to have your standard of living!
  • So if I have this right, if you are a high street retailer you should be charging your customers to enter the premises to shop? Equally if you have say a business where you have to communicate with your customer, you expect them to write to you and enclose a stamped addressed envelope and a sheet of paper for the reply?
  • Truepat
    Truepat Posts: 3,278 Forumite
    So if I have this right, if you are a high street retailer you should be charging your customers to enter the premises to shop?
    That is how it currently works
    A high street shop charges extra to cover heat, lighting, shop rental, staff costs etc.
    Equally if you have say a business where you have to communicate with your customer, you expect them to write to you and enclose a stamped addressed envelope and a sheet of paper for the reply?
    Again some already do

    Do you want to try some better examples LOL
    35, semi retired, sun, sand, sea, life is good
    When you are done moaning remember that there are people who would love to have your standard of living!
  • Heinz
    Heinz Posts: 11,191 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker Car Insurance Carver!
    This is getting silly now.

    I don't (wherever possible) deal with companies which use 087x numbers. Sometimes I have to (Sky) but their e-mail systems take a hammering then.
    Time has moved on (much quicker than it used to - or so it seems at my age) and my previous advice on residential telephony has been or is now gradually being overtaken by changes in the retail market. Hence, I have now deleted links to my previous 'pearls of wisdom'. I sincerely hope they helped save some of you money.
  • Newbold
    Newbold Posts: 89 Forumite
    Truepat wrote: »
    That is how it currently works
    A high street shop charges extra to cover heat, lighting, shop rental, staff costs etc.
    Again some already do

    Do you want to try some better examples LOL

    You're missing the point entirely, but who cares? Thanks for the kind words about business consultants earlier, by the way. So long as there are businesses being run by people with this sort of attitude to their customers I'll never be short of work. 27, semi retired, sun, sand, sea, life is good? Enjoy yourself - chill out. I'm wasting no more time on this.
  • Truepat
    Truepat Posts: 3,278 Forumite
    Newbold wrote: »
    You're missing the point entirely, but who cares? Thanks for the kind words about business consultants earlier, by the way. So long as there are businesses being run by people with this sort of attitude to their customers I'll never be short of work. 27, semi retired, sun, sand, sea, life is good? Enjoy yourself - chill out. I'm wasting no more time on this.
    Might just add your posting to this thread LOL
    No reflection on you but the last time I employed some business consultants I spent a sizeable 5 figure sum, and they cost my business a large 6 figure sum by the time we unpicked the mess they left behind
    I thought I might have learned something but they were all presentation and no substance and even less of an understanding of internationalisation
    Is the 'but who cares' attitude common amongst business consultants? LOL

    The new chap I have in seems much better though although I am keeping him on a tight rein

    Editted to add that you have served some purpose since I am now 28
    35, semi retired, sun, sand, sea, life is good
    When you are done moaning remember that there are people who would love to have your standard of living!
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