Would you smack a pony for being naughty ?

GemmaB78

Ignoring the debate on whips as punishment vs cruel (for what it's worth, I'm of the opinion that in the right hands and used CORRECTLY a whip/crop/stick is no worse than a bit, or reins, or any other piece of equipment used to train a horse) my answer to the original question:

NO I would not whip a horse for being naughty. In my experience, horses don't do 'naughty' in the same way we define it. If we think a horse or pony is being 'naughty', they've usually got, in their minds at least, a very good reason for doing so.

So I'd be looking for the reason WHY said pony refused to jump for example. Is something hurting? Is he experienced/confident enough to do it? Has he learnt that refusing means he doesn't have to work (and in a pony's mind that is NOT being naughty, that's self-preservation)?

I own a part-bred arab mare, and am just about to loan a pure-bred arab mare. Both are extremely sensitive (the pure-bred in particular) and both extremely good at telling you if they're not happy. If I were to ignore that, and hit them for whatever reason - refusing, spooking at something, I could expect to find myself in the next county, or eating dirt, and for a very good reason!

Raksha

MrsTine wrote: »

So let me get this right - some people here think that you can get a horse - that is a hither to unbridled and in handled horse - to lead a productive and happy life without ever using any aid in training it to do so?
So no saddle, no rope, no collar, no stick, no bridle, no paddock, no ANYTHING...

Best of luck to you even parelli and monty roberts can't do that .

Have you not heard of Shy boy? Yes - Monty Roberts use a bridle, saddle and a rope (which doesn't touch the horse as a rule), but that's all - Shy boy was rounded up by Bureau of Land Management, and then released - Monty followed him on horse back, and then on foot, was backed, in the wild, without a round pen.

He was then taken back to Monty's farm where he lived for some time (years I believe). The nagging question would always be which life did the horse prefer? So he was turned loose again - and the rest as they say, is history......

I don't doubt that it is also possible to do this without saddle and bridle or even rope, given time (and boundless energy, which I don't have )

MrsTinks

Raksha wrote: »

Have you not heard of Shy boy? Yes - Monty Roberts use a bridle, saddle and a rope (which doesn't touch the horse as a rule), but that's all - Shy boy was rounded up by Bureau of Land Management, and then released - Monty followed him on horse back, and then on foot, was backed, in the wild, without a round pen.

He was then taken back to Monty's farm where he lived for some time (years I believe). The nagging question would always be which life did the horse prefer? So he was turned loose again - and the rest as they say, is history......

I don't doubt that it is also possible to do this without saddle and bridle or even rope, given time (and boundless energy, which I don't have )

Yes I have heard of Shy Boy, I've read the book - infact I have a signed copy of the book that Monty signed for me at the 3rd demo of his I went to.

Aids used: halter, saddle, reigns, a crew including a helicopter and several mounted riders to mention the main ones...

Yes they turned him loose and he returned the next morning to Monty (watch the documentary - it's beautiful watching him running straight to Monty down that mountain side hopping over the sage brush...)

Hintza

Ponies can't be naughty!

My OH is very experienced with horses (groom at Olympic level) and I have ridden extensively in the UK and and for the Parks Department in South Africa.

I can tell you ponies can be extremely naughty, they will push an inexperienced rider as far as they can. My daughter (5) has just inherited the local gem of a pony who is 23 now, the first few weeks were fine and things are improving again, but we went through a month of fun, bucks and hand brake turns wth DD ending up on the deck more often than not.

Not a case for a crop but I can tell you it was just pure naughtyness which the pony enjoyed immensely until DD started to get a bit stronger with her. DD became a bit complacent with the pony but the pony soon sorted her out..lol

Raksha

Sudden change in behaviour - gold rule - get the animal checked by a vet to rule out physical/medical causes.........

Katie-Kat-Kins

Monty Roberts uses a coiled rope to send horses forward when working in a round pen, this is just the same as using a lunge whip.

Do those who think using whips is cruel think Monty Roberts et al are cruel??? Because they seem to be giving him high praise, but he is still using an artificial aid to drive the horse forward, taking advantage of the horses flight response.

To be honest I would think that a lunge whip is less cruel as it is more easily controlled in less experience hands.........

Raksha

I think those of us who were talking about using whips meant using the whip to make, or imitate making, physical contact with the horse.

When you're using a rope, or a lunge whip, or an extended arm you are exterting pressure on the animal, which ceases as the animal moves away. With careful training you can train the animal (as I did my Section to react to body movements without any punishment (negative or positive) being involved.

Personally, one of the reasons I dislike some of the Monty Roberts approach is because of the amount of mental pressure he puts the animal under. Cesar Milan is another who uses similar pressure, and what you see is an animal which has given in, but hasn't be taught or encouraged or rewarded to offer the behaviour you do want.

Kimberley

Hintza wrote: »

As with most discussions like this on here the debate just becomes polarised. No one condones abuse but you know very little about horses and ponies if you have never encountered this:-

I can see that but when Horses first came about they were not meant to be ridden, it's only man who decided on it but hey you don't want a History lesson.

Katie-Kat-Kins

So are you suggesting that we shouldn't ride horses at all because it constitutes abuse??

I think that if we didn't use horses for riding and driving then the numbers of horses in the world would decrease dramatically. Indeed it would probably only be the meat trade that would save them from extinction. There are very few heards of wild horses in the world, most are not genuinely wild and are only supported because they produce good working animals.

Also in many parts of the world horses are still vital to peoples survival, should we prevent them from using horses? Would we let them use ox or camels instead or would we let them starve because they are unable to farm effectively???? Would that be humane?????

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

Kimberley wrote: »

I can see that but when Horses first came about they were not meant to be ridden, it's only man who decided on it but hey you don't want a History lesson.

hang on, when we first came about we were supposed to run from dinosaurs, get education from writing on walls and bowing down to the male . . . do you live like that? i doubt it, so to say "horses werent meant to be ridden" is irrelevant