Would you smack a pony for being naughty ?

Raksha

MrsTine wrote: »

Raksha - go see Parelli - I think you'd enjoy it

I've seen Parelli, and Monty Roberts in action - of the two, yes, I do prefer Parelli.

I take a little from each of them when handling horses (which I haven't been able to do for some time due to finances and ill health )

It's interesting that all the 'mean' animals mentioned have been mean when stabled. The nastiest horse I ever knew (including all the entire horses I have cared for in my life - including 3 Section D stallions which were stabled with just a swinging bale between them) was an 18.2h riding school horse with a dodgey hip. The first day he was at the school he broke his grooms finger. He would always snake his neck out and have a gnash at people as they went past his box. Once you got past this, if you were brave enough, he'd tolerate and even enjoy a neck scritch and talk to you. During the summer, when he was out in the field at nights he was a different character..............

orlao

I've tried to stay out of this thread - but I can't:D

A whip, used correctly is an aid, a back up to your legs, not punishment.
I do not advocate abusing any animal but I do expect my animals to have manners that make them both a pleasure and safe to be around.Obviously since horses are so much bigger than dogs and can do more damage if they don't respect your space IMHO they have to learn to listen and move as you want them to. In 35 years I have owned and/or worked with 100's of different horses, some of them with serious behavioural issues for various reasons and I have NEVER abused, beaten or damaged them but I do insist that they are mannerly - that includes the things that brighthair mentions like stable manners, allowing themselves to be handled by various people, after all it is for their own good! Look at it this way, nice, well mannered horses invariably have much better, longer term homes and generally better lives over all.

As for using a whip under saddle, I have no problem with this if used for it's proper purpose. I've always worked from the principle "ask once(with the legs) insist a second time and if still ignored back the aid up with a whip" - one tap behind the riders leg doesn't constitute abuse IMHO. Like anything else a whip, used badly can be abusive as can legs, hands or many of the obscure training aids available. None of the people here will tolerate ill mannered, snappy or out of control dogs in public (there are many threads on here saying that those owners should have their dogs trained, kept on a lead in public, muzzled etc) but some of the same people are saying that horses should be allowed to? Why?

BTW, It isn't natural to keep a riding horse I agree but it also isn't natural to keep dogs, cats, rabbits or rodents as pets either......and we all do have pets or it would be unlikely that we would be posting on this forum!

Raksha

It doesn't matter how you fancy up the words - aids - using something which makes an animal do something to make you stop (applying pressure with the leg for example) is punishment in the pure form of the word.

I am not saying horses should be allowed to behave badly. What I am saying is, like badly behaved children, or dogs, we need to look at the reasons they are behaving like that and use positive reward based methods.

We are supposed to be the ones with the brains - surely we've come further than an angry 3 year old who lashes out when he doesn't get what he wants because he hasn't learned how to share?

Kimberley

orlao wrote: »

BTW, It isn't natural to keep a riding horse I agree but it also isn't natural to keep dogs, cats, rabbits or rodents as pets either......and we all do have pets or it would be unlikely that we would be posting on this forum!

I agree, but we do. I have two Bengal cats and a pup. I have trained the pup obedience and not once did I need to use my hands or an object.

laurauk

i think it all boils down to people feeling that they have to be in control, even if its over an animal.
its so much easier to give an animal a slap when it doesnt obey than a human,or if it doesnt trot or jump when told.
.what a sad race we have become

orlao

Kimberley wrote: »

I have trained the pup obedience and not once did I need to use my hands or an object.

Do you use a collar and lead? Have never removed a dog from a situation by pulling on the lead? Not all objects are long and stick shaped.....

It doesn't matter how you fancy up the words - aids - using something which makes an animal do something to make you stop (applying pressure with the leg for example) is punishment in the pure form of the word.

In that case, surely stopping a dog pulling on a lead is punishment too?
When training a dog to walk on a slack lead, I stop and go in the opposite direction when they pull...nobody says that's cruel....it's no different from putting your lgs on a horses side to ask them to move forward

Kimberley

orlao wrote: »

Do you use a collar and lead? Have never removed a dog from a situation by pulling on the lead? Not all objects are long and stick shaped.....



In that case, surely stopping a dog pulling on a lead is punishment too?
When training a dog to walk on a slack lead, I stop and go in the opposite direction when they pull...nobody says that's cruel....it's no different from putting your lgs on a horses side to ask them to move forward

Thats different to smacking a dog or Horse. The title of this thread says "would you smack a Pony for being naughty" and that is what my posts are about.

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

Using a whip as an aid is not cruel providing it isnt a "belt" and merely a tap. All animals need some form of training - untrained horses are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to be around (believe me! i know!) i've seen some of the best trained horses at pro level show jumping, they are used to the jumps etc but occasionally they get to a jump, think "sod that" turn sharply/rear/buck - they are acting up and being cheeky. If left then this behaviour worsens and you are left with an unmanagable horse because it knows that you wont correct it.

Theres different levels of smacking. Do i use a whip - i have done, Do i punch a horse, no do i hell!

I would have put my old horse on the naughty step along with DD if i could have but unfortunatley, i dont think he would have fitted through the front door . . .

Raksha

orlao wrote: »

Do you use a collar and lead? Have never removed a dog from a situation by pulling on the lead? Not all objects are long and stick shaped.....



In that case, surely stopping a dog pulling on a lead is punishment too?
When training a dog to walk on a slack lead, I stop and go in the opposite direction when they pull...nobody says that's cruel....it's no different from putting your lgs on a horses side to ask them to move forward

I'm not sure what you mean 'stopping a dog pulling on a lead is punishment too?'

It depends how you set out to stop the dog pulling on a lead. It's perfectly possible to train a dog not to pull on the lead using positive reinforcement.

I didn't say it was cruel, as it's accepted practise these days. However, choke/check collars were accepted practise in the 70s, but most trainers now know there are other more effective ways.

Occasionally it's necessary to restrain a dog with a lead, just as it is for a horse, but in the main its far more effective to train them to do what you want by a simple hand command or a word command. Dog training is for everyone, and small children often don't have the physical strength to force a large dog into a position, or teach it to walk on the lead if it's allowed to pull. However, a small child can teach the strongest dog to want to walk with them using reward based training. I think that's pretty cool.........

If a horse can feel a tiny fly on its rump - how do you think that 'mere tap' feels to the horse?

gorgeouslatinrose

Hey I have a question for you , apologises if its sounds really strange

At the yard i am at, a person rents a few stables round the back and looks after some showjumpers for clients. One day the women was using the sand school as usual but was angry and lost her temper , the horse was young ( approx 4 yrs) and started using the whip - fair enough. But this went on for 10 mins. She went off and came back, yelling, screaming at the horse and a friend who was trying to help her. By this time shes got the horse in a sweat , and was begining to lose control of the whip . This was embaressing to watch and personally i believe cruel but who am i to comment on someones horse. Anyway this went on untill she produced a metal poll and smacked the horse continually on the legs! The horse was shocked and jumping up and down and to be honest her friend looked shocked , but she had by this time lost her temper and was ordering her friend to do the same but her friend was too nervous to do it. Anyway she continually used the poll untill it was in and then spent 40 minutes galloping round the sandschool smacking the horse round the neck and back with a whip . Those who were there were shocked but the women is very intimidating and scared most of us with the screaming and yelling so we didnt get involved. But to be honest, Im shocked and since this time she has done it three times since. I cant talk to the women now, and when someone confrounted her about it she screamed, started !!!!!ing at everyone out loud as possible and screaming we were shortminded and stupid to think it was cruel.
I suppose my question is, do you think we were overreacting? I personally think it was awfull , but i wonder maybe if i jumped to conclusions . My first instinct was to call the rspca and ask advice, but im so nervous, this women has potential to make huge problems, and to be honest im worried about our own horses being at the yard if she finds out we reported her.
What do you think? Has anyone been in this situation?