PPC and Supermarkets - complaining about that Sainsburys leaflet!

Coupon-mad

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Made-up figures are not the point - the point is the principle behind those figures and which, of course, you have not answered.

'Made-up figures are not the point' :T Classic line! :rotfl::rotfl:

What was I supposed to answer? Your 'principle' seems to be that it's OK if some innocent people are clobbered with a 'fine' for a minor oversight as long as the majority of 'fines' are aimed at idiots who park in disabled bays?

I beg to differ, sir. Anyway all such 'fines' are unfair and unenforceable.

Still don't know what your question was though?

daveyjp

Altarf wrote: »

An honest question - How would you suggest that they prevent people from selfishly parking in a disabled space when they shouldn't? I don't agree with the charging method, but what is better?

It can be done easily and legally - our local Asda did it. They worked with the Council to make the disabled spaces subject to a Traffic Regulation Order . Council Parking Enforcement Officers can and do issue completely legitimate tickets.

MarkyMarkD

juliescot wrote: »

Because it puts off many of the ignorant morons who park inconsiderately. Does it? How many as a percentage would you speculate?

A very large percentage, of course. Most people are seriously deterred by the thread of a "fine" and those who have been "fined" once will be very significantly more deterred.

Wrong they are free for everyone - feel free to post the scale of charges from your local Sainsburys

You do not understand the point. If I have a car park which charges £80, but is free for those who park in accordance with my instructions, that is NOT unlawful. If I chose to have a car park with barriers which required a payment of £80 to enter, but refunded £80 at the checkout, that wouldn't be unlawful. If I have a car park with special spaces which cost £80 to park in, but are free if you comply with my conditions, that is not unlawful. Just because something is free WITH PERMISSION does not make it "free". Nor does it make a charge of £80 (or any other amount for that matter) unlawful, if you park there without permission.

How much will it cost? What do you base your financial calculations on?

This is a stupid question. It will cost more than zero.

Who is the "they" of whom you speak? Have you written to your MP about it? What was the response if so?

"They" was the supermarkets, of course. That is who I was talking about. And no, I haven't, because I don't really care about this issue. Have you?

Neither is putting up signs which are blatant lies. Maybe supermarkets could thing of something that would work?

Doh, they DO work because of the deterrent factor for the n'th time.

No idea what this bit means, feel free to posts links for the figures.

If you are stupid, I'm not going to explain it. The figures are (obviously) illustrative.

MarkyMarkD

juliescot wrote: »

Can you just repeat your question then - please.
I will have a go at answering it then.

Coupon-mad's ludicrous belief that there is no deterrent factor in signs saying that parking without permission will lead to "fines".

Which you strangely seem to share.

As you are so keen on figures, why not go to your nearest car park with "fines" signs, and your nearest equivalent sized supermarket car park without "fines" signs, and let me know how many non-compliant non-disabled or non-parents with children you see parking.

trisontana

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

You do not understand the point. If I have a car park which charges £80, but is free for those who park in accordance with my instructions, that is NOT unlawful. If I chose to have a car park with barriers which required a payment of £80 to enter, but refunded £80 at the checkout, that wouldn't be unlawful. If I have a car park with special spaces which cost £80 to park in, but are free if you comply with my conditions, that is not unlawful. Just because something is free WITH PERMISSION does not make it "free". Nor does it make a charge of £80 (or any other amount for that matter) unlawful, if you park there without permission.

But that charge is unlawful because it would be deemed an unfair penalty in a court of law.

Coupon-mad

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Coupon-mad's ludicrous belief that there is no deterrent factor in signs saying that parking without permission will lead to "fines".

Which you strangely seem to share.

As you are so keen on figures, why not go to your nearest car park with "fines" signs, and your nearest equivalent sized supermarket car park without "fines" signs, and let me know how many non-compliant non-disabled or non-parents with children you see parking.

I don't recall saying there was no deterrent factor? I don't have that belief.

Sadly, most people DO still believe such signs and leaflets.

You keep missing the whole point in that the 'fines' are unlawful and the letters PPCs send are often fraudulent and bullying. Supermarkets should be ashamed of themselves for associating themselves with such shocking practices and not checking out the legalities properly.

juliescot

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Coupon-mad's ludicrous belief that there is no deterrent factor in signs saying that parking without permission will lead to "fines".

Which you strangely seem to share.

You have lost me here. As there are no fines I am unclear as what you mean

As you are so keen on figures, why not go to your nearest car park with "fines" signs, and your nearest equivalent sized supermarket car park without "fines" signs, and let me know how many non-compliant non-disabled or non-parents with children you see parking . Why would I bother to do that? And what would it achieve?[/QUOTE]

Sorry you seem to have misunderstood my question.

What was the original question you wanted answered?

juliescot

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

A very large percentage, of course. Most people are seriously deterred by the thread of a "fine" and those who have been "fined" once will be very significantly more deterred. So no idea then

You do not understand the point. If I have a car park which charges £80, but is free for those who park in accordance with my instructions, that is NOT unlawful. If I chose to have a car park with barriers which required a payment of £80 to enter, but refunded £80 at the checkout, that wouldn't be unlawful. If I have a car park with special spaces which cost £80 to park in, but are free if you comply with my conditions, that is not unlawful. Just because something is free WITH PERMISSION does not make it "free". Nor does it make a charge of £80 (or any other amount for that matter) unlawful, if you park there without permission. No one is parking without "permission" as there is nothing to stop people parking in these car parks

This is a stupid question. It will cost more than zero. Yes but how much?

"They" was the supermarkets, of course. That is who I was talking about. And no, I haven't, because I don't really care about this issue. Have you? Why would supermarkets want to change anything? They have found a lazy "solution" Why bother posting then if you don't care? My MP is actively arguing for a change in the law so does not need any more nudging in the that direction

Doh, they DO work because of the deterrent factor for the n'th time. A bit of evidence would not go amiss. Maybe people don't park in the spaces out of a sense of moral duty?

If you are stupid, I'm not going to explain it. The figures are (obviously) illustrative. Or made up to put it another way

Threatening people with an unenforceable charge is just lazy, misleading and pointless.

BFG_2

Summary.......

The Sains leaflet contains 'inaccuracies'

PPCs cannot 'FINE'...and use of this word is contentious/possibly unlawful

PPCs can only issue an 'invoice' [which are pretty much unenforceable]

It's not nice to park in the blue badge or ickle baby spaces...but that doesn't excuse the PPCs from lying and misleading the public

Which bits are people squabbling over???

bargepole

Well I finally got a reply to my email to Sainsbury's head office, complaining about the signs in the High Wycombe store car park threatening people with "fines":

Dear Mr Bargepole,

Thank you for contacting us. It’s important to us that every email we receive is fully investigated before we reply. I’m sorry for the time it’s taken to respond.

I appreciate your positive comment about our High Wycombe store. It’s always a morale booster for my store colleagues to hear.

I must also thank you for the feedback about the car park signs in the disabled and parent and child bays. After checking all the signage in both parking areas with Euro Car Parks and Tim Heather, the Deputy Manager, the signs in the restricted areas are inappropriate.

Action has been taken to replace these and as a temporary measure, the incorrect word will be replaced.

I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about your experience, so that we can continually improve the services at our stores. I’m sure you will find everything to your satisfaction the next time you shop with us.

Kind regards

Geoff Bott
Customer Manager