Sony NW-A3000 20GB MP3 Player - £99.97!

cicobuff

http://www.techlounge.co.uk/96/sony-nwa3000-volume-limiter-hack.html

Reliquary

Can you provide a reference to this please? Sounds a bit like pseudo-scientific gobbledygook from a hifi mag but I am willing to be convinced otherwise!

Esentially the unit acheives the SPL limit by compressing the dynamic range (similar to "Night" mode on a Dolby equipped home theatre kit) Dynamic range compression works by shifting the Vmax (loudest sound audible) towards Vmin (quietest sound audible at the SAME time as one at Vmax) hence compressing the range of audible sounds. In doing this, detail (esp in the midrange) in the signal is lost.

The walkman still goes to the same numeric scale on the volume, 30, but it is an uncompressed 30. If you are worried about your hearing you can always use the AVLS option (limits SPL to approx 85dB). As a comparison, the "modified" level is approx 110dB and "limited" is 100dB

gromituk

So the player achieves compliance with noise levels by compression rather than volume limiting?

seanyseansean

bleugh wrote:

erm...........ATRAC is superior to Mp3 for a given file size

thats quite important really,

and don't argue, please, technically speaking, on paper it's superior, and i can definatley vouch for it on listening tests also

(NW-HD5, arcam alpha 8 amplifier, KEF Q15 speakers, Ixos gamma biwire cables, an old combination, but one that shows music flaws very well)


as for sony's software, it works well, supports MP3's, but crashes now and again.
it can even rip a CD to MP3 and use the CDDB database to rename the tracks

it supports Mp3 and Artrac, you can choose your own data rates also

it really isn't that bad, i used to prefer drag and drop in windows explorer, but i use the sonicstage all the time now

Sorry i'm late to this discussion but that's complete rubbish. I wouldn't have bothered reading except you spread misinformation and then urged people not to argue.

I work with compressed audio as part of my job and can state that for most people ATRAC sucks. It's optimised for encoding on embedded devices (minidisc players) so just doesn't have the horsepower to compress effectively. Compare it to later mp3 implementations (such as LAME) and it's awful, never mind other more modern codecs like AAC, AACPlus, OGG etc etc.

There's only one reason Sony used it on their digital audio players and that's to monopolise the market, plain and simple. Same as they do with memory sticks and whatnot.

Now most people playing on their crappy earbuds may not be able to tell how bad it is, especially with all the silly EQ like bass boost they use. But they will when it's output to a decent amp, or through decent headphones, or even worse is transcoded from an mp3 (as sonicstage/connect does). It's like copying a tape on a dual deck. The first person who questions this anology I will beat over the head with my cluestick and refer them to https://www.hydrogenaudio.org forums

How old are you? Have you ever done a double-blind ABX test? These are all relevent questions - if you can't tell the difference then your 'pimp' system was a waste of time.

Sony make fantastic hardware, always have done. They also make appalling and crippled software. I once asked Sony R&D to fix a major bug in their encoder. They told me they couldn't as it would mean them rewriting their 'skinned' user interface. Therefore they were telling me that childish and pimp graphics are more important than functionality. I'll remind them about this next time their distributors are trying to sell me some more edit decks.

Oh, it can access cddb can it and encode mp3s? Welcome to the 90's

If only it could do this without crashing...

To anybody who is flummoxed about this then i'd give this simple advice - avoid the Sony players however good they look unless you're techie enough to work around the problems.

If anybody wants some real advice on these things from someone that works with them then just ask
sean

gromituk

Indeed. This is much better value, even though it's no longer free postage.

gam3r

so i guess this offer for the nwa3000 doesnt stand anymore?

greatbigkev

seanyseansean wrote:

I work with compressed audio as part of my job and can state that for most people ATRAC sucks. It's optimised for encoding on embedded devices (minidisc players) so just doesn't have the horsepower to compress effectively. Compare it to later mp3 implementations (such as LAME) and it's awful, never mind other more modern codecs like AAC, AACPlus, OGG etc etc...

Now most people playing on their crappy earbuds may not be able to tell how bad it is, especially with all the silly EQ like bass boost they use. But they will when it's output to a decent amp, or through decent headphones, or even worse is transcoded from an mp3 (as sonicstage/connect does).

I agree with much of what seanyseansean said (although the merits or otherwise of ATRAC are nowhere near as cut and dried as he likes to make out). Sony is annoying for trying to use proprietory software/memory sticks etc. Some things I do take issue with, though. It seems as if seanyseansean is - at least in part - talking about the way things were some time ago. As he has set himself up as an expert - and I'm not doubting this - I need to point out one or two errors.

Things have improved immeasurably for the NW-A3000/1000 user in the past month. The latest versions of Connect and SonicstageCP and a new firmware update have made the players far more user-friendly. Goodness knows, the software needed sorting urgently. It used to be virtually unusable but now it works pretty well.

Connect and SonicStage haven't transcoded from MP3 (or WMA) for at least six months now, so that's one thing they've improved on, and ATRAC3plus is immeasurably better than its ATRAC3 predecessor. As for AAC format, the firmware/Connect and SS updates mean it is fully usable on the A3000 and A1000. It does seem as if Sony is finally listening to its users who complained that the hardware was great but the software was lousy.

seanyseansean

greatbigkev wrote:

I agree with much of what seanyseansean said (although the merits or otherwise of ATRAC are nowhere near as cut and dried as he likes to make out). Sony is annoying for trying to use proprietory software/memory sticks etc. Some things I do take issue with, though. It seems as if seanyseansean is - at least in part - talking about the way things were some time ago. As he has set himself up as an expert - and I'm not doubting this - I need to point out one or two errors.

Things have improved immeasurably for the NW-A3000/1000 user in the past month. The latest versions of Connect and SonicstageCP and a new firmware update have made the players far more user-friendly. Goodness knows, the software needed sorting urgently. It used to be virtually unusable but now it works pretty well.

Connect and SonicStage haven't transcoded from MP3 (or WMA) for at least six months now, so that's one thing they've improved on, and ATRAC3plus is immeasurably better than its ATRAC3 predecessor. As for AAC format, the firmware/Connect and SS updates mean it is fully usable on the A3000 and A1000. It does seem as if Sony is finally listening to its users who complained that the hardware was great but the software was lousy.

Fair enough on most of those points. But are you really saying the Sony players play WMA natively? I doubt that.

And what do you mean about the merits of ATRAC? I've seen no *independent* tests that say it's as good as or better than mp3. Again, encoding ATRAC was limited to be doable in embedded devices, this wasn't a design consideration with better codecs.

Here is a link to a proper double blind ABX test where ATRAC comes behind mp3 etc:

http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html

gromituk

To be honest I'd be surprised if ATRAC wasn't better than MP3 nowadays, as MP3 is a fixed and relatively ancient format, and there's only so much improvement you can make with better coders, given this limitation.

seanyseansean

gromituk wrote:

To be honest I'd be surprised if ATRAC wasn't better than MP3 nowadays, as MP3 is a fixed and relatively ancient format, and there's only so much improvement you can make with better coders, given this limitation.

But that's not true. The output bitstream is fixed but the implementation isn't, hence why LAME encoded mp3s sound fantastic compared to old Xing ones. And again ATRAC is optimised for older slower embedded devices, so can't perform some of the encoding tricks an mp3 encoder can.

Again look at the listening test results.

Anyways sorry for going OT, this is more for the techie forum.