A tale of barclays... one honest man in a company full of lies

damoandclaire

hi there jambosans

thanks for your response

i probably should clarify the "Worked For Barclays" Statement. I actually worked for the woolwich which was taken over by barclays. In terms of me saying that I worked for them for five years was a case that I couldn't beleive that I worked that long for a company that treats is customers as it did, including a member of staff, and unltimately, it led me to leave and find a better job. In terms of how things worked, they were very different between woolwich and barclays, given that they were the same company.

in terms of paying money in on a saturday for things that are happening on monday, although not advertised, it is usually common practice across banks, even if in their own unique way. that said, i quote the barclays customer agreement, section 4.1

If we receive instructions and credits for an account before the relevant cut-off time on any working day we will process them on that day or on the date specified in your instructions. Instructions and credits received after the cut-off time or for a non working day will be processed on the next working day. The cut-off time is the latest time each day that we can make payments or transfers from an account. We will tell you the cut-off times applicable to telephone and computer instructions. Branch cut-off times vary and are displayed in each branch.

My issue with barclays is that on this one occasion, direct debits etc were due to leave on monday (direct debit agreement states, working days and we all now how banks stamp their feet about working over weekends and the fact that they dont) but they chose to take these out on saturday instead, against their own customer agreement. Barclays decided in their infinite wisdom, not only to pay something ON A SATURDAY, despite their own rules, but they also took out on the same day (saturday) 3 charges in relation to the debits they decided to take, thus pushing me further overdrawn(incuring interest charges later on). The money i was to have paid in on the saturday morning would have prevented these charges coming out and in turn, all items would have been paid.

hope that clairifies, if not, please let me know of any more vagaries

Forgot one thing - i agree with the argument of having money in on the working day before however, life isn't that cut and dry and allowing for work, its not always easy to get to a bank before they shut on a working day - hence, most banks are open saturday mornings

jambosans

damoandclaire wrote: »

My issue with barclays is that on this one occasion, direct debits etc were due to leave on monday (direct debit agreement states, working days and we all now how banks stamp their feet about working over weekends and the fact that they dont) but they chose to take these out on saturday instead, against their own customer agreement. Barclays decided in their infinite wisdom, not only to pay something ON A SATURDAY, despite their own rules,

You previously stated in your last post that "the date was forward dated for monday". Therefore, they have processed the payment on Saturday for Monday (which is not uncommon, Lloyds TSB for example run their payments batch on a Sunday afternoon for Monday), but as far as the "system" is concerned, the payment, has left on Monday. So in terms of the Customer Agreement, to all intents and purposes they have played within the rules - due to the technicality of the "as date".

damoandclaire wrote: »

but they also took out on the same day (saturday) 3 charges in relation to the debits they decided to take, thus pushing me further overdrawn(incuring interest charges later on). The money i was to have paid in on the saturday morning would have prevented these charges coming out and in turn, all items would have been paid.

You have lost me on this one. They took the direct debits on the Saturday (dated for Monday), charged you (due to insufficient funds), and also debited these charges on the same day? As far as I was aware they would have notified you before hand, and I've also never heard of bank charges debiting on the same day they were incurred.

So this just leaves us with the unanswered question: if you had deposited money on the Saturday, and the direct debits had not been taken till Monday, would this have avoid charges? Well, no, if we follow what you have already stated. You quoted the customer agreement, which specifically says:-

credits received after the cut-off time or for a non working day will be processed on the next working day

. The Barclays website goes on to further explain:-

If you deposit cash at a branch after 3.30pm-4pm, the funds will appear on your statement and reflect in your balance the same day in Online Banking.

These funds, however, are NOT cleared funds and will not be available until the following working day. If the funds are transferred out of the account before then, you may incur charges to your account.

Therefore if we follow what you have stated, and also what the Barclays website explains, this suggests that regardless of the funds being debited on Saturday, your cash deposit would not have cleared until Monday anyways. To be fair though the statement on the website regarding cash deposits does not make reference to working days, it merely states the cut-off time - which does possibly suggest that funds can be cleared on a Saturday. However if this is the case, I would have thought this irrelevant if you read on.

Also, an "as date" should avoid these sorts of problems (however on this one I may be way off). For example, if there were insufficient funds to cover the direct debits on the Saturday, a charge shouldn't be applied until Monday, as the system sees Monday as the day the direct debits left. This part may be incorrect, as the "as date" may not avoid charges due to Barclays arguing that cleared funds would need to have been paid in before close of business on Friday.

damoandclaire wrote: »

Forgot one thing - i agree with the argument of having money in on the working day before however, life isn't that cut and dry and allowing for work, its not always easy to get to a bank before they shut on a working day - hence, most banks are open saturday mornings

I agree life isn't cut and dry, but most people know (especially a bank employee should know) that banks have cut-off times for a variety of reasons. Although there are many ways to bank out with the working week, when it comes to cash deposits, cheques, etc. they follow the more traditional 9 to 5, Monday to Friday rules. More modern means of credit and debiting accounts can thrive outside these timescales, particularly electronic means of money transfer (FPS, BACS, direct debits, etc) but I would imagine that's mainly due to automation and the ability to "self-serve" (i.e. using Online Banking).

Really we need a Barclays employee to clear this up. I've done my best to interoperate what you have explained and also the official line from Barclays, and logic suggests I'm close, but banks often defy logic. :rolleyes:

damoandclaire

fair comment on all the above.

just a lil bit on the charges - yes they did leave the same day that the debits took place and that was always the case, even with my girlfriends account and THAT was the issue that i had with them (barclays) - the fact that they took the charges out the same day the debits left and thus not giving me any time to rectify (which on this occasion would have been a matter of hours between debiting and crediting money in).

regardless of the fact that they are taking debits on a saturday (whether forward dated or not - they still processed on a saturday - a non bank working day), ALL banks preach all to well about how they don't work on non bank working days and that the weekends don't count, the least they can do is do what they preach.

Extant

damoandclaire wrote: »

fair comment on all the above.

just a lil bit on the charges - yes they did leave the same day that the debits took place and that was always the case, even with my girlfriends account and THAT was the issue that i had with them (barclays) - the fact that they took the charges out the same day the debits left and thus not giving me any time to rectify (which on this occasion would have been a matter of hours between debiting and crediting money in).

regardless of the fact that they are taking debits on a saturday (whether forward dated or not - they still processed on a saturday - a non bank working day), ALL banks preach all to well about how they don't work on non bank working days and that the weekends don't count, the least they can do is do what they preach.

The simplest way to think of this is that Saturdays and Sundays don't exist. The minute Friday cut-off rolls around, you're on Monday's posting date.

This applies to everything. In your specific case, you're presumably referring to Direct Debits. They didn't debit on Saturday, because Saturday doesn't exist. Likewise, any credit on that day is on Monday.

So, refer back to the terms and conditions that you've quoted and see point 4.9:

Barclays_Retail_Customer_agreement_2007 wrote:

We may refuse to make any payment if you do not have enough money on the account at the close of the working day before the payment is due to be made.

The payment was due to be made on Monday. You did not have sufficient funds in the account at the close of business on the previous working day - Friday.

Saturday doesn't exist, it's the same as Monday.

This is particularly relevant because of how the BACS system, which processes Direct Debits works - the system doesn't stop for the weekend, because it doesn't recognize a weekend.

The alternative is to hide these debits until the Monday - although the question is, why? You're still going to be in the exact same position of not having cleared funds available the day before.

jambosans

So I wasn't talking rubbish. Perhaps you can clarify BM, damoandclaire suggested that Barclays charge, and debit said charge on the same day the charge is incurred. Surely this is not the case? I thought Barclays, like every other high street bank gives notice of charges to be debited.

To quote damoandclaire:-

damoandclaire wrote: »

just a lil bit on the charges - yes they did leave the same day that the debits took place and that was always the case,

DevilsAvocado

jambosans wrote: »

So I wasn't talking rubbish. Perhaps you can clarify BM, damoandclaire suggested that Barclays charge, and debit said charge on the same day the charge is incurred. Surely this is not the case? I thought Barclays, like every other high street bank gives notice of charges to be debited.

We do now give notice, but this only changed this year/possibly last year. I can't remember exactly when.

jambosans

DevilsAvocado wrote: »

We do now give notice, but this only changed this year/possibly last year. I can't remember exactly when.

Thanks DevilsAvocado, so previously what damoandclaire stated happened, was the case? You appear to be BarclaysManager's alter-ego, or are all Barclays staff as astute?

damoandclaire

DevilsAvocado wrote: »

We do now give notice, but this only changed this year/possibly last year. I can't remember exactly when.

this was some years ago so could quite possibly have changed recently (last year or two).

thanks for all the responses to my posts by the way. does give food for thought

Extant

jambosans wrote: »

Thanks DevilsAvocado, so previously what damoandclaire stated happened, was the case? You appear to be BarclaysManager's alter-ego, or are all Barclays staff as astute?

Not actually me, although we are apparently one and the same.

I am also a man called Bendix. So I'm told.

Inactive

BarclaysManager wrote: »

Not actually me, although we are apparently one and the same.

I am also a man called Bendix. So I'm told.

Fairly sure that you ain't Bendix.;)