Need advice on what to do about Michael Jackson tickets - postponed dates.

Premier_2

Futher update from ebay:

27 June, 2009 | 12:49PM BST


The sad news of Michael Jackson's death has left fans of the King of Pop bereft. eBay is committed to ensuring that no buyer is left out of pocket as a result of the unique nature of the event, and will ensure all buyers on the site can receive a full refund for their ticket purchase.
On this basis, eBay and PayPal is extending its Buyer Protection to all Michael Jackson concert ticket purchases bought on eBay. The company will also help sellers by refunding eBay's sales commission when they refund buyers for Michael Jackson ticket sales.
Final details of how buyers and sellers can work with eBay and PayPal will be announced early next week.
Regards,
The eBay Team

http://www2.ebay.com/aw/uk/200906271249112.html

I'm not quite sure what that means, but it suggests to me that even buyers who bought their tickets over 45 days ago will be entitled to claim a refund.

Premier_2

Loz01 wrote: »

Yeah thats fine, I absolutely dont mind refunding her, its just that I could really do with Ticketmaster refunding me first, as I havent got 500 quid lying around lol, but if they refund me £300 (price of 4 tix) then I'll be okay to find the rest!

In the previous announcement, ebay said

...We would also ask buyers to be patient and allow sellers time to process refund requests...

I think they were aware of the potential issue some sellers may have instantly refunding the high sums that may have been paid to them quite some time ago.

However, expecting a buyer to wait until you've received a refund before passing on that refund (plus your mark up) to the buyer may not be acceptable.
You had already spent the money on the tickets before you sold them, so it was already gone. I appreciate you have now also spent the money you received from selling the tickets, but I can see the buyer simply wanting their money back asap.

I think what you need to do with urgency if you cannot raise the funds to provide an immediate & full refund is try & negotiate with the buyer how and when you will refund. I guess you could even try and refund in stage payments if the buyer agrees.
What is important is that whatever is agreed is then honoured, no matter whether you have received a refund yourself or not

soolin

Thanks Premier.

Obviously no respectable seller will be put out as no doubt they will all be refunding regardless of 45 day periods or not, but if it means paypal will over ride their own terms and extend the 45 day period then I think that raises a serious concern about how paypal treat their own terms and conditions.At the moment sellers are reasonably secure in the knowledge that for all standard not received claims we are safe after 45 days, except where the claim is raised as a fraudulent use of card. If that deadline is removed, even as a one off it will make sellers feel quite insecure.

I could see a possibility where, for instance, ticket sellers who already have different rules about not having goods in hand, have funds held until tickets are despatched (even if that extends to several months) or maybe even have an open ended claim period, but even then i can't see how paypal could do this retrospectively.

I will be interested to see the further announcements next week.

Loz01

Thanks everyone - I have messaged the girl and said about the ebay announcement and that TM emailed me saying they are issuing a statement about refunds early next week - I said hopefully they'll start refunding money this week to people, so I can send it back to her ASAP. Fingers crossed she'll be understanding

nexuss

No legal rights exist for those buying from private sellers

If tickets were bought from private sellers on the internet or in person then no terms and conditions are stipulated and so the buyer does not have any set legal rights.

soolin

nexuss wrote: »

No legal rights exist for those buying from private sellers

If tickets were bought from private sellers on the internet or in person then no terms and conditions are stipulated and so the buyer does not have any set legal rights.

Unfortunately that is not strictly true. People have a legal right to expect goods they have paid for and that is all that matters here.

I don't trade as a house seller, yet if I sell my house to someone I can't refuse to hand it over as I am not a business.

Premier_2

nexuss wrote: »

No legal rights exist for those buying from private sellers

If tickets were bought from private sellers on the internet or in person then no terms and conditions are stipulated and so the buyer does not have any set legal rights.

You have to read that in context.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_8120000/8120412.stm?id=2387

There may be no legal rights for buyers to receive a refund from private sellers because the tickets supplied are for a concert that has been cancelled.

If a seller doesn't supply the goods a buyer has bought and paid for, the buyer can reasonably expect to receive a full refund.

JCS1

I think that the refunds from ticketmaster et al wont be a quick thing. I was at Cheltenham Racecourse in 2008 when one day was cancelled and they refunded back to your credit/debit card - that took a month and was on a much smaller scale.

It's a massive administration job, and that assumes that they have the cashflow to meet all the refunds straight away.

amcluesent

IMHO Ebay are digging a bigger and bigger hole and jumping into it. Retrospectively changing T&C's so that any seller can get hit for a refund after 45 days is just a bad joke. At the end of the day, Ebay/Paypal will have to take a haircut on this one unless they want a PR disaster.

If I was a private seller, I'd consider refunding face value and then telling the buyer I'd see them in court for the rest, asking them where in the contract was the force majeure clause that said I'd be liable if the event didn't go ahead?

Premier_2

amcluesent wrote: »

...If I was a private seller, I'd consider refunding face value and then telling the buyer I'd see them in court for the rest, asking them where in the contract was the force majeure clause that said I'd be liable if the event didn't go ahead?

The issue is in most, if not all, cases, the seller hasn't supplied the buyer with the item purchased i.e. the tickets.

In such a situation, you as a seller would almost certainly be onto a loser in court and hence end up paying costs too.

Remember, whatever paypal & ebay decide is not necessarily the legal position. If you were a seller and you had supplied the buyer with the tickets and you felt a chargeback was wrong, you could always take the buyer to court following a chargeback (and their refusal to pay) to assert your contractual rights.

Somehow, I suspect most sellers wouldn't be so minded though It's easy to be a keyboard warrior; not so easy to assert your rights in front of a judge and a defendant.