How can we persuade employers NOT to use imigrant workers?

neas

i;ve got a masters engineering degree... and let me tell you it certainly wasn't 'given' out... of the 100 who started the course 40 passed with a 2:1 at the end of it... the rest dropped or were forced out.

Anf i'll correct you again. In terms of engineering and scientific degrees, people are screaming for graduates... the core of the problem has been and still is, is that for tthe last ten years the following has been true for science and engineering jobs:

1. It paid less than a banker.... and prob less than an estate agent during the HPI inflation period...
2. It was rock hard and when combirned with number 1 meant not many people would bother doing it (so numbers dropped for A-Level and Degree studies)
3. Degrees in general were diluted such that you could do media studies, media studies and golf management, golf management and tourism, golf management and psychology... the list goes on.

While jobs generated from those types of degrees (num3) do exist there arent enough of them so essentially we are training our youth and future workers with worthless information than is required.... and for the jobs that are needed we aint getting enough good quality graduate educated individuals.

Engineering graduates are still being recruited now... and are head hunted. While the salary of a banker and other high paid indivduals drop... the salary of the engineer is rising slowly.. but mainting its level at least.

As for the maths comment, it is standard practice on most courses to spend 10% of the first year (not the entire year man!) reteachig/going over previous knowledge as not all entrants will enter at the same level. This will bring everyone up to speed for the course and typically is taught in first 3 months of a degree. I was one who already did further maths so it was a little borrowing but I dont think it was time wasted in the grand scheme.

Sorry for having a rant, but i believe you are having an ill infromed 'rant' as well. the problems are that the economy rewarded not engineers, not scientists who are the bricks and mortar of new innovation... but bankers and estate agents who got us into this recession in the first place ;P.

Do agree that not everyone can be a rocket scientist or nucear scientist and that should be represented in their pay packet... which at the moment it is not.

A_fiend_for_life

dervish wrote: »

This is a very thorny issue. Unchecked immigration (especially the economic kind) has put untold strains on British society with many empluers simply going for the cheapest option in employing cheap immigrants rather than British workers,

This has led to many British people losing their jobs and has caused huge social unrest in places like Oldham, Burnley, Manchester etc.

How can we dis-incentivise employers from taking the cheap and easy option of foreign workers?

Unchecked 'inward investment' in the opposite direction has probably raised rents and mortagages beyond the reach of those people who have come over here to improve their lot to buy an affordable home. Many have headed home and they will be sorely disappointed.

Hopefully they get good disposable income after working 'x' hours a day. Round here on the farms they can work around 80 hours a week and have extortionate costs taken off them for board, groceries, access to washing facilities, transport and whatever other costs 'employers' care to take off them.

How to dis-incentivise them? Don't bother the services will be exported, those companies who focus on price rather than training and innovation will sacrifice quality and go to the wall.

Pssst

If migrants are here legally and legitimately then whats the problem? The only query i have is that i see people whom i perceive as migrants doing various jobs and i wonder to myself, who did those jobs before the migrant came?

Unless they are newly created jobs,someone must have done them so why did that person leave the job?

misskool

Can you first define what sort of immigrants you mean? The government if making it very hard to employ non-EU migrants and have a new rule in place where all non-EU migrants have to report any changes in address and phone numbers to the employers (isn't it ironic how non-EU migrants have no privacy rights in this country?). They are also ensuring that non-EU migrants have minimum English requirements and minimum bank balances of £800 AFTER their monthly expenses.

If you're objecting to the freedom of workers movement within the EU then you have to object to being part of the EEU

If you're objecting to asylum seekers working illegally, then you must change the conditions which they are subjected to and process them quicker or get them to work in something that is acceptable to you.

If you're objecting to illegal migrants then you have to get enforcement officers which are allowed to enforce. Currently they have very limited rights and detention centers thus those who are picked up can go out and disappear before they are deported.

The government is now honing in on soft targets, the highly skilled non-EU migrants. Effectively, you're dissuading the people that you most need as they fill gaps of skill sets not available in this country. You're shooting yourself in the foot by reducing your competitiveness in the global economy and reducing the knowledge base available.

blue_monkey_2

I am guessing that there are a number of reasons.

The first being that they are cheaper to employ. No doubt many come from agencies and so therefore will not have the same 'rights' as UK workers and they probably do not get paid holiday pay, pensions, maternity pay and sick pay so these companies get to keep more money in their pockets. It might also be keeping the companies head above water.

I believe the likes of Tesco have agencies working for them in Eurpoean countries so the person would be employed as such by the Agency, not by Tesco, so you can be 'let go' if the work load ceases.

These migrants also do a lot of work that others in the UK do not want to do uuch as fruit/vegetable picking and bar/restaurant work. But, that will be the same work that people from the UK that are off 'backpacking' will do in the country they are in to get money to live. So in that respect it is swings and roundabouts as far as I can see but with the economy as it is the employer will take on the person that they can afford to.

However, you hear a lot about some people not wanting to get out of bed for minimun wage and this is where the problem lies. When you can get more on benefits than you can working then there will be no 'incentive' for some people, they are just lazy!

I remember my first factory job 20 years ago getting £2.50 an hour, I was dead chuffed to get onto the bigger machines and get a pay rise and so was earning £3.33 an hour.

I do however think a lot of employers are taking people on a 'self employed' or agency basis as there is too much red tape in being an employee. If work slows you can just say 'sorry, no work tomorrow' and there are no real contracts and with everyone suing for someone coughing on them these days as an employer you do have to have your wits about you.

I have a small business, there are times when I think that I could use some extra help but I cannot be bothered with everything I need/watch/say to do so I am happy staying a small business. You can even be sued now if you take on someone younger/older/male/female - and someone takes objection and finds a reason to say 'hey, hold on, they are younger than me that is not fair' and it's a lengthy process for the employer to have to prove they took that person on for their merits, it's way too much hassle so maybe this is why employers are getting the migrants in - to save themselves the hassle and legal fees it is going to cost them just for getting through the interview process for the jobs in the first place and hope you are not sued for giving the job to 'the wrong person'!!

So who to blame? Sure, it's great having all of these 'rights' but at what expense?

lostinrates

Having worked abroad and seeing a lot of dispondancy among colleagues of DH....I'd ask...

How do we keep UK professionals here?

WE are the ''immigrants'' elsewhere, and frankly, we're everywhere.

misskool

1984ReturnsForReal wrote: »

Then enhance the degrees in science & IT then we can build some stuff nobody else has thought of or is capable of.

The problem doesn't always lie in the degrees being given out, it starts at the school education system. Children are being forced at a young age to regurgitate things they've "learnt" to pass exams for a government agency to say that they are being taught.

Primary school children aren't taught science or IT in any coherent sense. As an example, in year 5, they are taught about sound and the different types of sound but not about sound waves (which is essential as knowing what the waves are like makes understanding it easier). For year 6, they are supposed to know about microorganisms but make no distinction to the different types of the bacteria that exist. The curriculum is failing the country in producing good high quality graduates*.



*unless you're in a public or grammar school, then different rules apply

blue_monkey_2

A RM Manager responsible for interviewing called someone in for an interview and they arrived with someone else in tow. Asking who they were he was told 'his/her translator'. He said 'sorry, you would not be able to work hereas you need to read addresses' he was called into the Job Centre and threatened with prosecution for not interviewing that person. It is madness.

Who indeed can be bothered with all of that stress and crap when you can just employ agency workers and not have them in the next day if they are rubbish?

Heyman_2

Maybe the BNP could send some of their [STRIKE]thugs[/STRIKE] party members around to 'persuade' the employers not take on immigrant workers?

stephen163

jamespmg44 wrote: »

I agree with that - but a science degree needs to be worked at not given out like toilet paper - only a certain percentage of the population are capable of doing one.

I remember seeing a report on tv about how 1st year students needed to be retaught higher maths because so many were below what was traditionally classed as university standard. Most degrees are only 3 or 4 years so that's 1/3 or 1/4 of the degree wasted. It can't do anything but devalue it!
.

I've got an engineering degree. I'd have to say, most of the people on my course were mathematically minded so had no problem in that respect. With science degrees, I would guess only 1 module per semester (out of 6) would be dedicated to maths. Extra classes are also provided to help those falling behind.

I've also said this before - the value of a degree in a relevant subject from a good university has not been devalued. I was told by a recruitment specialist of a big graduate employer that 95% of their recruits come from top 15% of the universities. But your prospects are also subject specific. For example, engineering graduates are still in high demand and most of our FTSE 100 engineering companies are now forced to recruit in places like eastern europe because there aren't enough qualified people here.

We need to encourage more people to do Maths and Science A levels - somehow!