How can we persuade employers NOT to use imigrant workers?

dylansmum

tomterm8 wrote: »

Maybe part of the problem is that Universities aren't there to teach, or to improve job prospects, or most certainly to make sure students turn up. In the main, Universitites are there to provide a place for pure research. Teaching is a very small and relatively unimportant part of that.

It seems to me that the development of the idea that university should be an extension of school is foolish. There should be far fewer people at university. It should be limited to the people who have a real chance of extending the bounds of human knowledge.

We need another system founded on teaching, with a mix of vocational and theoretical work, so that people who want to learn practical skills (everything from IT, media studies, brick laying or hundreds of other courses whose purpose is mainly to teach people to do a job) can do so. Preferably, within an enviroment where they are already employed during the course.

THings are not working great.

Research money from the RAE brings in a small amount of the total budget - the bulk is for teaching. However, the RAE (Research Assessment Exercise) has led, I grant you, to a topsy turvery situation in some unis (Russell Group, e.g. Liverpool is closing down non-star research depts, but the RAE is flakey!), where academics have to prioritise research to ensure the uni's place in the league tables, forgetting that unis are places of education! . For many unis, though, teaching is a priority. A balance is best as research informs teaching and ensures graduates have up to date knowledge and skills.

Employment skills are embedded in degrees (or meant to be); but if students are only interested in minimum work for maximum grade then they do not gain those skills. Another poster suggests that bad teaching is to blame for poor attendance. While I am sure there is truth in this ( infact, there is), there is a batch of students at my uni and many others (yes I am an academic and a blooming great teacher - take my word, please - but this is what the students say), approx 25%, who simply won't engage but are the first to email staff to ask for grades (not feedback, note) but grades. Often, they do not do well. But they are customers. Often, we hear from some students (and their parents who ring us when their DS or DD is 20!) that they are 'paying' so ...real examples coming:

Why are we capping their grades for plagarism? (oh yes!)

Why can't we do email tutorials at weekends to go through stuff they've missed (because while I work 70 hours per week I should forget ANY time with my own family).

Can we give them a good reference anyway (even though student hasn't shown up for three years).

Do I HAVE to read all this stuff - what should I read to get a 2.1? (don't worry - I'll read it for you! Work? Good grief, no, we will jsut give out degrees like they are sweeties).

How do unis respond - by often forgetting with rights come responsbilities. By often pandering to them even more - and it really does not help them! I have kids email me at say midnight and then when I am at work at 8 am find another email (sent at 1 am) asking why I had not replied more quickly. Often emails are things they could find out if they could be bothered! Very few are academic in nature. I feel like a 'mum' more than a lecturer sometimes. What keeps me going is the many other fab undergraduates who work hard and know the value of an education, rather than just its immediate price; who don't grab grades, but enjoy learning. I go a long way to help my students and work many, many hours as I feel I am very responsible for the skills they should be learning. But I hate feeling at beck and call to every whim and whinge.



Uni is not an extension of school (though first years think it is, sometimes) and undergraduates find it hard to adjust to the idea of problem solving and independent thinking, of self motivation, organisational skills and so forth. It is our job to help them learn these things, but their job to be willing to learn. I always explain to my students that employers WON'T answer emails at midnight, WILL expect attendance, determination, good conceptual thinking, high levels of literacy etc. But I also tell them to enjoy learning - to broaden their horizons and deepen their understanding in ways that is not just about a career, but about their whole lives.

HE needs lots of work. And as for access - I want it to be wider, but to work in a different way. At the moment there are first generation kids coming in, but mainly it is still those whose parents went to college. Neither set is better than the other, but there is an inbalance. And all applicants have good A level grades, but it does not mean they will all do well, alas.

Sorry for rant - not against you - just agree that things are not working very well.

jojo1964

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

It is possible that they will do what I did, and go home back to their roots. So after paying taxes in various countries and generally being a law-abiding citizen (well, fairly law-abiding...), I have returned home.

So, back here, law-abiding and paying taxes, haven't used NHS for 26 years, and will get a reduced Basic State Pension, a small Company Pension, and I've been deferring the BSP over the last 2 years (ie losing the pension I would have received to gain a small extra percentage for the future) - so have been saving the Country quite a bit of money over the years.

Perhaps if we look at the emigrants who return home, we can see that cross-border working is pretty advantageous to each other's countries.

Jen
x

You assume that many will return to their native countries, can you substantiate that?

You state that you have been out of the country, so did you think you were entitled to a full state pension, surely the years you were out of the country you were not contributing to this country, and as for deferring your state pension, surely that has not saved the country anything, as you are gambling on living to a ripe old age, thus getting a higher state pension, so in the long term it will cost the country more.

fc123

I did some guest lecturing and set some 'special' projects some years back ~(when I had spare time ) and it was an eye opener.

My sector is seen as arty farty based....actually, it's about the execution of ideas, core practical skills are needed to make the ideas into products.

These are the skills I learnt many years back...the arty bity is the icing.

I loved the 10% of talented, hardworking engaged students, the 30% not very talented but very keen and hardworking, but really lost interest in the remaining 60%.......though, obviously, I didn't show it.

These kids didn't even have basic pattern cutting skills in year 2, basic stuff that I had been taught in the same institution 17 years previously, they hadn't been taught at all.

The general view seemed to be that any products would be made outside the UK once they were in the industry, so why worry too much?

fc123

tommy09 wrote: »

me from poland me work better than uk worker me work harder me work longer me work for less money uk worker no good poland harder working better skilled me work 70+ hours per week for £4.50 per hour uk need poland worker or it do no good poland people work harder than uk worker employer want poland worker not lazy uk worker

Have you been reading 'Two Caravans'?

jojo1964

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

Microstar wrote: »

As someone who actually employs EU-immigrant labour (a couple of Polish lads) I can tell you the main reason is that they are cheaper and don't go running for legal advise if they breath in some diesel fumes or you ask them to take a week's unpaid leave. /QUOTE]


So one of the reasons why you like them is because you feel you can mistreat them. That's dreadful! Be very careful that if you are treating people badly, they don't turn on you.

Jen
x

We will be sending children up chimneys again soon.

By employing cheaper labour, who are prepared to ignore some very serious health and safety issues, we are destroying the rights that the unions (when they were any good) fought for, by forcing our own workers to try and compete against cheaper labour, and cutting corners.

dylansmum

lostinrates wrote: »

I agree with much of that. I think employement through university (both related to my area of study and not) helped me a lot.


BUT, I'm not sure why universities' teaching style is so much of an issue. its not meant to be school, students are meant to be able to research and understand subjects themsleves. There was never a restriction on access to tutors if there was problem understanding IME, and coping with this change in style of education is part of the process of becoming a university student, instead of expecting to have all the information given to you to see how mch you can learn off by heart. seeking out knowledge (research skills, motivation) and indeed developing knowledge (thesis/research projects) are the skills we are meant to be developing alongside depth of knowledge of the subject we are reading.

Golly - bet you were a brill undergraduate! Exactly. Tutors WILL give time.

Jennifer_Jane

jojo1964 wrote: »

You assume that many will return to their native countries, can you substantiate that?

You state that you have been out of the country, so did you think you were entitled to a full state pension, surely the years you were out of the country you were not contributing to this country, and as for deferring your state pension, surely that has not saved the country anything, as you are gambling on living to a ripe old age, thus getting a higher state pension, so in the long term it will cost the country more.

Hi jojo!

• No, I cannot substantiate anyone returning to the native countries. That's why I said 'It's possible...' and gave my personal anecdote. I did not offer it as a fact, merely as a possibility.
• Yes, I knew that I would not be entitled to a full state pension on my return.
• I did not contribute to the Country in the years I was away, but neither did I take anything from the Country. For some years before I returned I paid NI. Since I returned I have been paying tax, of course.
• Deferring the pension has meant that I have not had the benefit of the £4000 per annum, or whatever I could have had - that has gone forever.
• Yes, I am gambling that I will get a higher state pension in due course, and my spreadsheet indicates that that I will be in overall 'profit' in 2022 at age 74. I may well, of course, die before then. But I am gambling that I will live longer than 74. I assume that the Deferral Plan is also banking on people who defer, dying before the break-even point, otherwise why would they institute the scheme? The only thing we know absolutely for sure, is that I have not yet taken up my entitlement. We do not yet know how long I will live.

Anything else, jojo? Happy to answer any questions,
Jen
x

tomterm8

1984ReturnsForReal wrote: »

You got me until "media studies".

Like it or not, media is a huge industry in britain, employing over 100,000 people. It is an industry where we have a massive competative advantage, with several of the world biggest media companies being based in the UK.

It is not an academic subject, but it is a important vocational sector, that deserves the best training possible.

Jennifer_Jane

jojo1964 wrote: »

We will be sending children up chimneys again soon.

By employing cheaper labour, who are prepared to ignore some very serious health and safety issues, we are destroying the rights that the unions (when they were any good) fought for, by forcing our own workers to try and compete against cheaper labour, and cutting corners.

Yes, exactly, well said.
Jen
x

dylansmum

fc123 wrote: »

I did some guest lecturing and set some 'special' projects some years back ~(when I had spare time ) and it was an eye opener.

My sector is seen as arty farty based....actually, it's about the execution of ideas, core practical skills are needed to make the ideas into products.

These are the skills I learnt many years back...the arty bity is the icing.

I loved the 10% of talented, hardworking engaged students, the 30% not very talented but very keen and hardworking, but really lost interest in the remaining 60%.......though, obviously, I didn't show it.

These kids didn't even have basic pattern cutting skills in year 2, basic stuff that I had been taught in the same institution 17 years previously, they hadn't been taught at all.

The general view seemed to be that any products would be made outside the UK once they were in the industry, so why worry too much?

Yep, with you here. There is a real issue getting some of the basic skills up to scratch for year 1 (and even year 3 sometimes!). It is a hard slog - some the skills I expect from kids with an A at subject A level are not there. I read essays with poor punctuation and paragraphing time and time again. It can be sorted if the student is willing to learn.

We haven't dumbed down our degree, but the pressure is always there - I have friends at other unis who are 'not' to fail students unless vital - and not to really go below a certain grade (which, I am happy to say, they tend to ignore and give the right grade). Me? I grade them accordingly. They are paying me to teach and assess them. Why devalue degrees for the hard workers?