How can we persuade employers NOT to use imigrant workers?

misskool

dylansmum wrote: »

vivatifosi wrote: »

In terms of students, people should be allowed to study in the UK, but they should only be able to come to study at real colleges and universities, not bogus ones. All colleges should keep registers of their students to show that they are studying, not working. All private schools and colleges should have the onus placed on them to prove that they are legitimate.
QUOTE]

Can I just say (in a neutral way) that while unis keep registers (and are obliged to do so for overseas students and, to an extent, lecturers are meant to monitor overseas students) attendance is not really compulsory for students (well.. it is, in one way, as tied to students loans and for non Brits oftenntied to own country's loans/bursary systems); most unis are scared to enforce attendance. This is often because unis are now 'service providers' and students are 'customers' and unis are worried about upsetting said customers. Unis can't enforce attendance unless they report to student loan Co or overseas provider (which they are reluctant to do due, once more, to worries over student complaints). So unless we change our educational culture then registers are useless. I can tell you that attendance often runs at 50% - very annoying and beats me why anyone would stump up this money and then not attend! Rather like paying for a new car then leaving the showroom without it.:rolleyes:

I know that some students avoid lecturers that can't teach or the ones where they don't understand a heavy accent. The universities don't employ lecturers to teach, they employ them to do research and teaching is just a side line responsibility. The university rankings are mostly based on the amount of quality papers the academic publishes and how much money they are able to pull in from grants. The money the university receives from each British/EU student is not enough to cover their teaching.

In the natural sciences, a lot of lecturers farm their teaching out to their lab postdoctoral researchers who are trying to climb up the academic ladder and need to publish to get an academic position. It's not their top priority to be teaching undergraduate students. I'm not quite sure how or what needs to be changed, just that this is how it is at the moment.

lostinrates

misskool wrote: »

You shouldn't have to wait till you are at university to appreciate the value of money

I agree, but my amazment is not tht people don't learn then, is that they STILL don't learn then. All education is precious, and that we live in a country where education is valued for all, and avaiolable for free should be a reason to give thanks and pat ourselves on the back. We have the right to an education, but I think what we forget is we hve the repsonsibilty to make it as easuy for yteachers and schools as possible, and to work as hard as we can. Children avoiding homework etc is one thing, its a requirement as well as a riht when you are 11, but to get to the point of voluntarily being educated for FREE or very cheaply, and to be doing the minimum amount of work etc....its abhorant to me.

I think Single Sue's post is very clear expression of a part of my frustration over our attitudes to education, as does your poibnt about the 'boring educated. It suggests to me a real lack of value this amazing thing we have. On the other hand I share a frustration with ''pointless academia', which occurs through out the academic strata.

I don't think our system is flawless, far from it, but its there, its there for everyone.

tomterm8

Maybe part of the problem is that Universities aren't there to teach, or to improve job prospects, or most certainly to make sure students turn up. In the main, Universitites are there to provide a place for pure research. Teaching is a very small and relatively unimportant part of that.

It seems to me that the development of the idea that university should be an extension of school is foolish. There should be far fewer people at university. It should be limited to the people who have a real chance of extending the bounds of human knowledge.

We need another system founded on teaching, with a mix of vocational and theoretical work, so that people who want to learn practical skills (everything from IT, media studies, brick laying or hundreds of other courses whose purpose is mainly to teach people to do a job) can do so. Preferably, within an enviroment where they are already employed during the course.

Microstar_2

As someone who actually employs EU-immigrant labour (a couple of Polish lads) I can tell you the main reason is that they are cheaper and don't go running for legal advise if they breath in some diesel fumes or you ask them to take a week's unpaid leave. Skill level doesn't really come into it because most of these blokes are low- or semi-skilled.. Most UK workers moan too much and come with too much baggage ("not in tomorrow morning, got to take kid to doctor" etc etc). In my business (car sales/repair) East Europeans are very popular - go to any big dealership and their valeters will be East European, increasingly the techs too. A metal fabricator local to me got rid of 12 UK staff last summer and replaced them with Eastern Europeans, saved about 50% on his wage bill and he can get rid of any of them at the drop of a hat with no legal come backs. Not saying that its right or wrong, but that's how it is in business, especially at the present time. The class war is over and the white British working class lost big time.

As regards Higher Education - kids don't want to do science and engineering because its difficult - a lot of hard graft and then they graduate with a big debt and end up earning not a lot of money. Kids with the brains to do science and engineering would be better off doing law or medicine - something that pays well. Science and engineering were screwed 20 years ago. My best friend from school (30 years ago) worked up to a PhD in Chemistry and works on asthma drugs, he earns less than a decent salesman in local Ford dealership, never mind accountant or solicitor. If you want more engineers/scientist then pay them a lot more and you'll get crushed in the stampede.

The Tories ruined universities around 1990 when they launched a big expansion of numbers with no additional funding and then turned the Poly's into Uni's to pull the rug from under the old Uni systems (anyone remember 'A Very Peculiar Practice' ?).
Employers (CBI, IoD) lobbied government for much higher student numbers (50% target) to increase supply of graduates and hold down graduate pay.

1984ReturnsForReal_2

tomterm8 wrote: »

Maybe part of the problem is that Universities aren't there to teach, or to improve job prospects, or most certainly to make sure students turn up. In the main, Universitites are there to provide a place for pure research. Teaching is a very small and relatively unimportant part of that.

It seems to me that the development of the idea that university should be an extension of school is foolish. There should be far fewer people at university. It should be limited to the people who have a real chance of extending the bounds of human knowledge.

We need another system founded on teaching, with a mix of vocational and theoretical work, so that people who want to learn practical skills (everything from IT, media studies, brick laying or hundreds of other courses whose purpose is mainly to teach people to do a job) can do so. Preferably, within an enviroment where they are already employed during the course.

You got me until "media studies".

Microstar_2

tomterm8 wrote: »

We need another system founded on teaching, with a mix of vocational and theoretical work, so that people who want to learn practical skills (everything from IT, media studies, brick laying or hundreds of other courses whose purpose is mainly to teach people to do a job) can do so. Preferably, within an enviroment where they are already employed during the course.

We used to have places like that. They were called Polytechnics, but Thatcher didn't like them so they were got rid of.

1984ReturnsForReal_2

Microstar wrote: »

As someone who actually employs EU-immigrant labour (a couple of Polish lads) I can tell you the main reason is that they are cheaper and don't go running for legal advise if they breath in some diesel fumes or you ask them to take a week's unpaid leave.

:eek:



OMG The truth at last!

Jennifer_Jane

Microstar wrote: »

As someone who actually employs EU-immigrant labour (a couple of Polish lads) I can tell you the main reason is that they are cheaper and don't go running for legal advise if they breath in some diesel fumes or you ask them to take a week's unpaid leave. /QUOTE]


So one of the reasons why you like them is because you feel you can mistreat them. That's dreadful! Be very careful that if you are treating people badly, they don't turn on you.

Jen
x

lostinrates

tomterm8 wrote: »

Maybe part of the problem is that Universities aren't there to teach, or to improve job prospects, or most certainly to make sure students turn up. In the main, Universitites are there to provide a place for pure research. Teaching is a very small and relatively unimportant part of that.

It seems to me that the development of the idea that university should be an extension of school is foolish...........

I agree with much of that. I think employement through university (both related to my area of study and not) helped me a lot.


BUT, I'm not sure why universities' teaching style is so much of an issue. its not meant to be school, students are meant to be able to research and understand subjects themsleves. There was never a restriction on access to tutors if there was problem understanding IME, and coping with this change in style of education is part of the process of becoming a university student, instead of expecting to have all the information given to you to see how mch you can learn off by heart. seeking out knowledge (research skills, motivation) and indeed developing knowledge (thesis/research projects) are the skills we are meant to be developing alongside depth of knowledge of the subject we are reading.

fc123

misskool wrote: »

You shouldn't have to wait till you are at university to appreciate the value of money. Education has lost value in this country because the perception that those who are educated are boring and do not have a high-value (ie high media related) contribution. Young children do not care to be a scientist or engineer or chemist, they would much rather be a footballer, a WAG or a reality TV star.

A handy inbetween is to learn how to design/make things that WAGS, Celebs what to buy.

Been very good for my kids to see as they grew up....as they have seen factories, the hard work and the stress........and then seen the trivial end product on show,,,,followed by payday.......which kept a roof over our heads.