Normal behaviour for a dog breeder?

hethmar

Slightly different scenario if its a rescue pup. The rescue may want to be sure the dog is well cared for - we see many dogs straying when they have been originally placed by a rescue but have changed hands since the original adoption. Of course no one should do this, if an adopter cannot care for the dog the dog must be returned to the rescue. This may be what they are trying to stress to your BIL.

Steel_2

Found out the name of the rescue centre and been on their website. Can't find any evidence that they breed collies - I wonder if all the puppies BIL saw were rescue pups (incidentally there were a number of old armchairs and sofas in with them which they were chewing and crawling all over. Not surprisingly BIL has a problem keeping his new pup off the furniture).

Anyway, they have a copy of their adoption contract on their website where they retain the right to pitch up and remove the animal if they believe the new owner isn't looking after it properly, but it says nothing about not giving it back if found by the RSPCA or Police. That was a verbal warning given on pick up day.

Also it stipulates that they must agree to be the dogs 'guardian' only and not 'owner'. The minimum £150 payment is donation only to cover the cost of vets bills incurred by the shelter. The dog can only ever go back to shelter and no where else. Not the RSPCA or a relative etc etc.

Personally I wouldn't sign a contract that gives me no rights as a owner, but I have cats, not dogs which is slightly different (if you ask the cats they'll say technically I am owned by them :rotfl: ). Also I haven't seen some of the terrible things this shelter obviously has. If I had it might change my mind.

foreign_correspondent

hethmar wrote: »

Slightly different scenario if its a rescue pup. The rescue may want to be sure the dog is well cared for - we see many dogs straying when they have been originally placed by a rescue but have changed hands since the original adoption. Of course no one should do this, if an adopter cannot care for the dog the dog must be returned to the rescue. This may be what they are trying to stress to your BIL.

That sounds more likely - I wonder if its a pup that was born in rescue to a b1tch that came in already pregnant? - its unlikely that a rescue would breed dogs intentionally, as it is hard enough to find homes for rescue dogs without creating more!

ETA - oops sorry Steel - cross posted!! Thsat sounds like a rescue that is very keen to get very good homes for their dogs - the advantage of this to the new owner is that the pup kas likely been very well cared for, and will always ahve a safe place to return to, should his new keeper become unable to manage him for any reason (change of jobs, illness, house move etc) - some less good rescues/pounds say you can retun the dog in the first seven days, after that they arent interested.

I wonder if the 'we will keep the dog if it's brought in lost' means 'we reserve the right to...' which could well be there just to make people unerstand their responsiblity, work on recall, and not let the dog roam about - a bloke down the road from my dad has two collies, who are very frequently wandering on the main road!!

MrsTinks

The "return to rescue" condition is very normal and perfectly acceptable in my view. It's technically the same with an RSPCA dog too - If I for any reason can't keep Kira I must according to my adoption contract return her to the RSPCA - of course in practise if I have found her another suitable home they are often willing to consider this although the new home would probably have to sign an adoption agreement with similar/same terms.

The only part that would concern me is that if the dog strays or is lost then they will refuse to hand it back to him - Bearing in mind he has already thought a rescue was infact a registered breeder I would question his understanding of what has been said when it comes to returning the dog if it got lost... I guess the rescue may well have said if the dog "repeatedly" gets returned to them by Police or RSPCA etc then they can and will refuse to hand it back... or even that if it gets returned to them by police/RSPCA they MAY refuse to hand it back - ie if they feel it was let loose due to neglect or severe carelessness. I would think these would both be prefectly reasonable for a rescue to place as conditions.

Kimberley

Steel wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't sign a contract that gives me no rights as a owner, but I have cats, not dogs which is slightly different.

Rescues need to ensure that the dog/s are well cared for. Plenty of our dogs who we rehome to people end up going missing or tied up unwanted somewhere and returned to us when the Microchip is scanned. The Microchip needs to stay in the rescues name so that the dog is always reunited to them and the rescue always knows where the dog is. If the Microchip is changed into your name and you turn out to ill treat the dog/s then the rescue will not have a clue on it's whereabouts and anyone that finds the dog/s will not be able to trace the rescue.

Also it is quite right that the rescue insists that the dog is returned to them if the new owner cannot keep them anymore, this is to prevent the dog getting into the wrong hands that could end up with the dog/s being neglected and ill treated.

The above should not matter to you when you take on a rescue animal anyway.

Steel_2

I agree FC.

But unfortunately it's created a huge amount of stress in my BIL now who is understandably very worried that the dog will escape one day and never be returned to him.

I'm fairly positive the shelter doesn't agree with tethering, yet is that what he will have to do to ensure it never escapes? What if he wants to take it to the park and play ball? Must it never come off a lead just in case?

My neighbour has a collie/ dalmation cross who has escaped three times in the last two years to go and herd sheep in the surrounding field. On two occasions he wretched his head from side to side to rip his collar off while being taken for a walk. The third time he yanked the lead out of her hand (nearly dragging her over in the process) and took off.

Should he be taken away from her?

MrsTinks

Your neighbour should be taking the dog to dog training classes and work not only on his recall but also his lead work I'm afraid...

Your BIL shouldn't in my view tether the dog - instead he should train the dog. If you read the MANY threads on here where I mention my dog you'll see that I have what can only be described as a VERY hard work dog I have taken her to classes, I have gotten a highly regarded dog trainer in and I do a lot of work with her. I STILL do not trust her off leash around other dogs she doesn't know and so she stays on a lead unless she's in a secure field and I can see all the exits to make sure any potential dogs coming in will be spotted by me before her.
If he is a responcible dog owner then he'll find a BC puppy incredibly easy to train and more than likely rather than run off it will stick so close to his heels that if he turns suddenly he'll stumble over it.
Kira DID manage to run off once - not long after we got her - when the front door either wasn't latched properly or she managed to open it (it's the kind where you lift the handle to part secure it and to be able to lock it) - because we don't know which it was we now lock the front door even if we're home to prevent it happening again.
I think so long as he is responcible and doesn't let his puppy wander off leash in unsecured fields he'll be fine. Assuming his garden is secure then again there is no reason in my view to tether the dog up...

Steel_2

Kimberley wrote: »

Rescues need to ensure that the dog/s are well cared for. Plenty of our dogs who we rehome to people end up going missing or tied up unwanted somewhere and returned to us when the Microchip is scanned. The Microchip needs to stay in the rescues name so that the dog is always reunited to them and the rescue always knows where the dog is. If the Microchip is changed into your name and you turn out to ill treat the dog/s then the rescue will not have a clue on it's whereabouts and anyone that finds the dog/s will not be able to trace the rescue.

Also it is quite right that the rescue insists that the dog is returned to them if the new owner cannot keep them anymore, this is to prevent the dog getting into the wrong hands that could end up with the dog/s being neglected and ill treated.

The above should not matter to you when you take on a rescue animal anyway.

I agree that they do need to be well-cared for and in many cases people don't understand what it takes to look after a dog and the enormous responsibility that goes with it.

I agree that it really shouldn't matter when you take on a rescue animal and that it is a very good idea to have a return to rescue policy.

What I don't agree with is the threat by the rescue centre to rehome the animal if the RSPCA or Police return it, based on my post above about dogs escaping.

I have a problem with the contract I just read because it reserves the right to remove the dog from you if you break any of the terms of its (very long) contract, one of which is - for example - if the dog is fed baker's complete, because it contains too many E numbers.

As I've said, I don't keep dogs so I don't know the ins and outs of one dog food from another. But i would have thought swooping in and removing an animal due to brand of food it was fed was odd?

How an animal is cared for is hugely emotive and loaded with subjectivity. Even if you get two highly experienced rescue shelters together and ask them to give their advice on various aspects of animal care, you'll find they will cite differences based on the way they do things.

I've tried to put BIL's mind at rest and told him not to tether the dog under any circumstances, but likewise to exercise caution when taking it out for a walk and not to let it off the lead until it is much older and can be trusted not to run off.

MrsTinks

In fairness then is the rescue really likely to come round and check the dogs food? Although why you'd want to feed a highly strung breed like BC something like bakers which will only make it MORE hyper eludes me

Ultimately if he didn't like the terms and conditions then why did he rescue from them? He signed the contract...

Steel_2

MrsTine wrote: »

Kira DID manage to run off once - not long after we got her - when the front door either wasn't latched properly or she managed to open it (it's the kind where you lift the handle to part secure it and to be able to lock it) - because we don't know which it was we now lock the front door even if we're home to prevent it happening again.

Puppy has already figured out how to open his crate.....:rotfl:
Very intelligent animal!