Advice about dismissal - please

Amber07

Oh my word, preparing this bundle is awful - I have spent 15 hours over the weekend working on it!!

Question for anyone who still reads the thread lol - as well as copies of all the evidence, should I put in OH's explanations of events as well, or is that giving the company too much info? Or will it just show them that he has got every aspect covered?

Also, at each stage from the initial meeting through to the appeal the list of allegations against OH changed. Some were dropped, others were brought up later. Should I cover every single allegation, or just the 3 at the end he was dismissed for?

Wondering if it's too late to get a lawyer involved now lol.....

Emmzi

I would keep it simple. If there was an investigation and allegations dropped, then they are already done and dealt with, and including them will seem petty *unless* they are clearly *totally* unfounded, in which case it is support for a claim of bullying. However I would have your version ready in case the company decide to raise it at ET.

If, however, you wish to use it to demonstrate due process was not followed, I would indicate that it was unclear what accustations had to be answered/ that they kept changing - but note that some were dropped. If they brought in *new* accustaions part way through the process instead of starting again, then that is harder for them to defend.

You are appealling against the reasons they *said* they dismissed only, not ancient history. You need to come across as totally rational, not vindictive and rambling/ a bit of a mental old soul with an axe to grind. So it is probably more about what you are using the info for, rather than should it be in there at all.

pinkshoes

I've just read this whole thread from start to finish (!), and although I have no useful advice, I just wanted to wish you all the best, and think it's fantastic that your OH is standing up to this company who thinks they can get away with anything!

My fingers are crossed for you!

Amber07

RubyRue wrote: »

Good luck Amber!!! I know the feeling! We've been communicating with the tribunal with OH case trying to chase up what is happening as we haven't really been told. OH ex employers requested a two week extension to submit their response which was granted, and OH only found out by chance when asking about something else, it wasn't communicated to him. Apparently the tribunal is swamped with cases so they are behind with everything.

Ex employers now have till this Friday to respond although we have been told unofficially that the ex employers might try to offer OH a deal as they haven't done anything and aren't intending to respond! We shall wait and see what happens Friday.

Good luck with it all - not good to hear the tribunal are a bit lax in forwarding info, but as long as you are keeping things right your end I'm sure it will go well

Amber07

pinkshoes wrote: »

I've just read this whole thread from start to finish (!), and although I have no useful advice, I just wanted to wish you all the best, and think it's fantastic that your OH is standing up to this company who thinks they can get away with anything!

My fingers are crossed for you!

Thank yiou for your support. Can't believe you have read the whole thread, wow!!:o:T

Amber07

Emmzi wrote: »

I would keep it simple. If there was an investigation and allegations dropped, then they are already done and dealt with, and including them will seem petty *unless* they are clearly *totally* unfounded, in which case it is support for a claim of bullying. However I would have your version ready in case the company decide to raise it at ET.

If, however, you wish to use it to demonstrate due process was not followed, I would indicate that it was unclear what accustations had to be answered/ that they kept changing - but note that some were dropped. If they brought in *new* accustaions part way through the process instead of starting again, then that is harder for them to defend.

You are appealling against the reasons they *said* they dismissed only, not ancient history. You need to come across as totally rational, not vindictive and rambling/ a bit of a mental old soul with an axe to grind. So it is probably more about what you are using the info for, rather than should it be in there at all.

That's our trouble - deciding what's what

I wish I could hold off sending it until we get their bundle then I would know how detailed they are being.

At this point I have a list of the allegations made at 4 different steps of this process, and a page reference to the history/explanation of each one.


Also referring to an allegation that was brought up at the intital meeting and as a reason for suspension, at one point, the MD said to OH that if he carries on with this (the tribunal) they may take an allegation further via a governing body. It has never been brought up since (basically there were no real grounds to take it further)but OH felt they were trying to scare him into withdrawing from this (although OH doesn't 'do' scared)...does it look petty if I put that in?

jazzyman01

Usual tactics I am afraid - you would be surprised at how many people withdraw their applications at the last minute.

RubyRue

Amber07 wrote: »

Good luck with it all - not good to hear the tribunal are a bit lax in forwarding info, but as long as you are keeping things right your end I'm sure it will go well

Thanks! The deadline has come and gone and they didn't respond so its getting sent to the judge for a default judgement, its all down to waiting now.

Best advice I got was just keep it simple as possible, the tribunals are mostly interested in processes and procedures. Try to be as calm as possible! Good luck!!!

jobbingmusician

Amber07 wrote: »

Oh my word, preparing this bundle is awful - I have spent 15 hours over the weekend working on it!!

Question for anyone who still reads the thread lol - as well as copies of all the evidence, Question 1 should I put in OH's explanations of events as well, or is that giving the company too much info? Question 2 Or will it just show them that he has got every aspect covered?

Also, at each stage from the initial meeting through to the appeal the list of allegations against OH changed. Some were dropped, others were brought up later. Question 3 Should I cover every single allegation, or just the 3 at the end he was dismissed for?

(Implied) Question 4. Wondering if it's too late to get a lawyer involved now lol.....

Hello Amber, a late entrant to this thread, but I've just read it over the last two days!

My opinion is that no bundle can be too big! I've numbered your questions above....

Q1. Remember that the bundle contains a statement from OH. This is his opportunity to explain events (together with his responses to the questioning from the employer's lawyer).

Q2. Yes it will. And at this point in time, keep focused on the fact that you are probably working towards a settlement (which it sounds to me is likely to be offered at the entrance to the court. I mean that literally - this employer sounds as if they might go to the wire, and offer a settlement just before you walk in.) So you want to scare the employers as much as possible, so the 15 hours spent on the bundle so far is time very well spent. It's just occurred to me (and I am making this bit up as I go along, but it does feel right) that you could think of the time spent on your bundle as potentially, and hopefully, worth £500-£1000 an hour.......:rotfl:

Q3. If you wanted to look helpful to the court, you could structure this so that OH's statement addressed the items he was dismissed for, and then include a paragraph similar to the one below.

This statement addresses all the allegations cited by the employer in the final disciplinary hearing/in the letter giving reasons for dismissal (delete as appropriate). However, I have already made the point that the employer did not make the basis for the original disciplinary hearing clear to me. I have appended a list of the allegations made by the employer at various times in this process, together with my responses to these allegations, as part x of this bundle.

I would then make the list of allegations the next thing after the statement. That way the court can skip over it if they feel they don't need it, but it is there, pre-prepared, if your OH gets a question at any time which relates to these allegations.

Q4. Just to reiterate - you don't need one! I am SO impressed with your determination, hard work and intelligent approach (sorry if this last sounds patronising, but how else do I express it?) to this problem.

Don't forget that you should be asked to exchange bundles prior to the hearing - the employer may well start negotiations when they see your bundle. That said, at my ET (the one where I was the employee, rather than the employer as I normally am) they forgot to specify this (in fact I don't think they mentioned bundles at all), with the very satisfying result that the employer forgot to write a statement for their bundle! (Rather satisfying as I was suing legal 'experts' ) The result was that we didn't exchange bundles until 5 minutes before the hearing! :eek:

PS It may be my memory of this lengthy thread, but did you ever receive the disciplinary procedure, and bullying and harassment procedure? If not, do make a big point of this in your statement. Apart from the multiple other procedural irregularities, they are on very shaky ground dismissing anyone for bullying without providing them with a copy of the procedure during the disiplinary procedure.....

Amber07

Hello - and welcome to my little part of the world (!)

Actually, I have to say it was your original ET help thread which I followed when I started on this bundle job, so thank you for all that info you have already helped to provide, along with the other contibuters.

jobbingmusician wrote: »

Hello Amber, a late entrant to this thread, but I've just read it over the last two days!

My opinion is that no bundle can be too big! I've numbered your questions above....

Q1. Remember that the bundle contains a statement from OH. This is his opportunity to explain events (together with his responses to the questioning from the employer's lawyer).

I am holding off on the statement till last so that I have everything clear and finalised in my mind. I am hoping to include statements about the good side of his work capability in this as well, as well as querying how so many complaints could surface within 10 days, with no prior warnings.

Q2. Yes it will. And at this point in time, keep focused on the fact that you are probably working towards a settlement (which it sounds to me is likely to be offered at the entrance to the court. I mean that literally - this employer sounds as if they might go to the wire, and offer a settlement just before you walk in.) So you want to scare the employers as much as possible, so the 15 hours spent on the bundle so far is time very well spent. It's just occurred to me (and I am making this bit up as I go along, but it does feel right) that you could think of the time spent on your bundle as potentially, and hopefully, worth £500-£1000 an hour.......:rotfl:

Oh if only! Hehe wait till after the ET - I am going to present OH with a bill!!!!:rotfl:

Q3. If you wanted to look helpful to the court, you could structure this so that OH's statement addressed the items he was dismissed for, and then include a paragraph similar to the one below.

This statement addresses all the allegations cited by the employer in the final disciplinary hearing/in the letter giving reasons for dismissal (delete as appropriate). However, I have already made the point that the employer did not make the basis for the original disciplinary hearing clear to me. I have appended a list of the allegations made by the employer at various times in this process, together with my responses to these allegations, as part x of this bundle.

Thank you for this, I shall not it down and make an addition

I would then make the list of allegations the next thing after the statement. That way the court can skip over it if they feel they don't need it, but it is there, pre-prepared, if your OH gets a question at any time which relates to these allegations.

Q4. Just to reiterate - you don't need one! I am SO impressed with your determination, hard work and intelligent approach (sorry if this last sounds patronising, but how else do I express it?) to this problem.

Thanks

Don't forget that you should be asked to exchange bundles prior to the hearing - the employer may well start negotiations when they see your bundle. That said, at my ET (the one where I was the employee, rather than the employer as I normally am) they forgot to specify this (in fact I don't think they mentioned bundles at all), with the very satisfying result that the employer forgot to write a statement for their bundle! (Rather satisfying as I was suing legal 'experts' ) The result was that we didn't exchange bundles until 5 minutes before the hearing! :eek:

PS It may be my memory of this lengthy thread, but did you ever receive the disciplinary procedure, and bullying and harassment procedure? If not, do make a big point of this in your statement. Apart from the multiple other procedural irregularities, they are on very shaky ground dismissing anyone for bullying without providing them with a copy of the procedure during the disiplinary procedure.....

^we have a copy of the employment contract, which details the disciplinary procedure. I will have to re-read through and see if there is a section in it for bullying/harassment

You know, I have been rereading my posts on here, and they still haven't stated any definite bullying incidences - times, dates etc. Just 3 statements, one which we have already proved was altered, and another which we know was altered but the guy who signed it is too scared to stand up and admit it (can't blame him really, we all need to think about our own jobs) The managing director who was supposed to investigate himself left the company a month after OH's appeal.


Oh for a crystal ball.... :rotfl: