Advice about dismissal - please

Floss

Amber07 wrote: »

... (Doesn't help that he was a police officer, they read just like a court statement!)...

Don't let that worry you - the guy behind that recent rugby union cover-up is an ex-copper too!

Did you get hold of ACAS?

dharm999

Amber07

Firstly good luck with the ET. You have been incredibly strong and brave to go through all of it. I have only been involved in one ET, and that was from an emplyer's point of view but there were a number of things that came up in our ET that might be of some use to you.

1. Check in your bundle that everything references properly. The claimant in ours didnt and things were all over the place which irritated the ET chair no end.
2. Make sure the bundle you give to the other side matches exactly the bundle you have. In ours the claimant had made changes to his bundle, and when he referred to his docments they were different to the bundle we had and the tribunal had. This cast considerable doubt on his credibility as all the differences were to his benefit.
3. Pepare your OH for a grilling, especially as the other side will have a solicitor or even a barrister who will pick every element of your case apart. He needs to remain calm, and if he doesnt understand what he is being asked, ask for clarification (sounds obvious but misunderstanding a question and giving the wrong answer might completely undermine his case)
4. Know what figure you will settle for before you go into the tribunal on day one. They may surprise you on the steps of the ET by offering a settlement, and its better you are prepared and know what you want. If you think about it beforehand you will be ready with a considered answer, and not have it rush it and maybe make a mistake
5. In our ET the claimant asked for two witness orders to ensure that two employees turned up to give evidence. I'm not sure if this applies to ex employees, but you can ask the Tribunal if the ex employee you have a statement from doesnt want to give evidence can be ordered to attend
6. If the ex employee is going to give evidence he needs to be prepared, as he will also get a grilling.
7 In the ET put little post its and section dividers in your bundle so you know exactly where everything is and also where the key documents are, as you dont want to spend minutes trying to find a document or even worse not finding a critical document or phrase. Dont do this for the bundle you give to the other side, let them work through the bundle themselves. Let their solicitor clock up the fees for them.

Cant think of anything else at the moment but if I do I will post again.

Good luck.

jobbingmusician

I like this, and think it might be worth adding to it.

dharm999 wrote: »

Amber07

Firstly good luck with the ET. You have been incredibly strong and brave to go through all of it. I have only been involved in one ET, and that was from an emplyer's point of view but there were a number of things that came up in our ET that might be of some use to you.

1. Check in your bundle that everything references properly. The claimant in ours didnt and things were all over the place which irritated the ET chair no end. It's helpful to number EVERYTHING - every paragraph, as well as every document and page. Word will number the paras for you (you may have to edit, as it's not the best programme going) but you will probably have to number the docs and pages yourself. It is worth doing, though - it gives you SO much more confidence in court if you can say 'para 8, page 33 which is in document 13' (might be worth writing the doc no. on each page ON YOUR COPY ONLY for this sort of fluency).
2. Make sure the bundle you give to the other side matches exactly the bundle you have. In ours the claimant had made changes to his bundle, and when he referred to his docments they were different to the bundle we had and the tribunal had. This cast considerable doubt on his credibility as all the differences were to his benefit. Yep. But I'm sure you would do this .:D
3. Pepare your OH for a grilling, especially as the other side will have a solicitor or even a barrister who will pick every element of your case apart. He needs to remain calm, and if he doesnt understand what he is being asked, ask for clarification (sounds obvious but misunderstanding a question and giving the wrong answer might completely undermine his case) Good advice!
4. Know what figure you will settle for before you go into the tribunal on day one. They may surprise you on the steps of the ET by offering a settlement, and its better you are prepared and know what you want. If you think about it beforehand you will be ready with a considered answer, and not have it rush it and maybe make a mistake More good advice!
5. In our ET the claimant asked for two witness orders to ensure that two employees turned up to give evidence. I'm not sure if this applies to ex employees, but you can ask the Tribunal if the ex employee you have a statement from doesnt want to give evidence can be ordered to attend I have always been advised against witness orders, as these witnesses are a bit unpredictable. They are great as a last resort, but ATM it sounds as if you don't need any.
6. If the ex employee is going to give evidence he needs to be prepared, as he will also get a grilling. More good advice....
7 In the ET put little post its and section dividers in your bundle so you know exactly where everything is and also where the key documents are, as you dont want to spend minutes trying to find a document or even worse not finding a critical document or phrase. Dont do this for the bundle you give to the other side, let them work through the bundle themselves. Let their solicitor clock up the fees for them. I like this a lot!!!!

Cant think of anything else at the moment but if I do I will post again.

Good luck.

dharm999

Thought of a couple more things, having re read my previous post.

As its scheduled to be a two day hearing, I guarantee you both will be absolutely knackered after day one. I know its sounds like a small thing, but try to have food prepared before you go to the tribunal, or even better get a takeaway from your favourite place with a nice bottle of wine or some special beer. It sounds ridiculous but you will not want to cook, but will need to eat something to ensure you look after yourselves. It will be a horrible and stressful day so you will need to unwind, and wont want extra pressure of working out what to eat when you get back home.

It may be difficult but if you could get family or friends to look after the kids for that first night it will help you both immensely as it will allow you the chance to talk through the day's events without feeling inhibited that the kids are around and you cant talk freely.

Take bottles of water with you, as the water we had in the ET was from the tap (Inormally drink tap water, so not a water snob, but even I couldnt drink it) and it tasted like it had been filtered through a dead animal's backside, and we couldnt drink it. If you are going to be doing a lot of talking you will need water.

Take a small fan, with spare batteries, as the room we were in had no air conditioning, and it was incredibly warm - for some reason the heating was on, and it was already warm outside. It made it very difficult to concentrate on everything that was going on.

As you arent having a solicitor the ET will make allowances to a degree but they wont bend over backwards completely for you. You need to appear professional and know exactly what you are trying to say, so practice and practice what you are going to say. Do it in front of a mirror so you can see what you look like as well when you are talking.

Decide on what you are going to wear a few days before the ET, so if it needs dry cleaning you have time to get it dry cleaned. Make sure its smart but also comfortable as you will be in a small room all day that may be warm and claustrophobic. The chairs we had were definitely not designed for comfort and having uncomfortable or warm clothes will only add to the discomfort.

Make sure OH knows his statement inside out, back to front, and sideways. Test him on it, not what is the first word on line x, but get him to read his statement and try to explain it to you out loud, or even better a family member or friend who hasnt been so closeley involved. They can ask questions that may appear silly or stupid but these may be extremely critical questions, as if they dont understand something the ET wont either. Verbalising things will highlight the areas of his statement that arent as strong as other parts allowing you to strengthen these areas.

Again if I think of anything else I'll post some more.

good luck

Amber07

Wow - thanks for all those tips, great to have a view on the practical side of things.

I was away for the weekend and haven't been feeling too well since I got back, but I have helped OH compile a list of things to go thru with his witness when they meet tomorrow (the guy who was his under manager at the time) I can't go as we don't have anyone who can babysit.

I am phoning CAB tomorrow, hoping for an appointment next week if she can squeeze us in (their employment expert is only available on a Tues) and ACAS - didn't call today cos of the bank hol.


Am completely rejigging the bundle, as I feel we were giving them too much of our information. Just sedning the documents on their own now, none of our arguments/explanations.

Oh - and their managing director has been 'got rid of' since all this took place (no idea why) but he is still down on their solicitors list of potential witnesses. Not sure if he is a definite or not against us.

Amber07

I am still a little confused about what to send as part of the 'bundle'. I phoned the ET and they haven't sent us an exchange date as they had to wait 7 days to see if OH raised any objection to the second day for the tribunal being added. They shoudl have something in the post by the end of the week. I just want to be prepared once we hear from them.

This is all the stuff I have compiled into a booklet:

1- Front Cover
2- Index
3- OH's Statement
4 - OH's Statement contd
5- Chronology of Events
6- Procedural Irregularities
7- Directgov Minimum procedure (from the website)
8- Minimum Procedure contd
9- Response regarding stat min procedure
10- Notes made after Initial meeting
11- Notes contd.
12- Allegations
13- 'Failure to process an item through the computer'
14- Statement from witness concerned
15- 'Misappropriation of Cash' (concerning £10 in tips)
16- Performance Indicator sheet
17- 'Intimidation and Bullying'
18- Statement, Witness A
19- New Evidence from Witness A (saying statement has been tampered)
20- Statement - Witness B
21- Response to Witness B's Statement
22- Letter from Employers regarding employee contact (ie: don't!)
23- Statement - Witness C pg1
24- Statement - witness C pg2
25- Response to Witness C's statement
26- Statement - Witness D
27- Response to Witness D's statement

Appendix A - Employee Contract
Appendix B - Suspension Letter
Appendix C - Dismissal Letter
Appendix D - Letter of Appeal
Appendix E - Reply regarding appeal
Appendix F - Appeal Confirmation
Appendix G - Dismissal Upheld


Opinions seem to vary between 'hit them with the lot so they know you have a good reason for doing this' and 'hold back, give them the bare minimum.

I really would like an honest opinion on what to send (please!) do I just send documents, or do I let them know OH's side of things/arguments as well?

Thanks to anyone who is still reading x

Debt_Free_Chick

Amber07 wrote: »

Opinions seem to vary between 'hit them with the lot so they know you have a good reason for doing this' and 'hold back, give them the bare minimum.

I think you have to be careful here. You must not knowingly hold back a "crucial piece of evidence" and then spring it at Tribunal without warning.

Personally, I would send everything.

Another advantage to sending everything is that once the Employer sees how strong your case is, they may be advised, by their solicitor, to settle before Tribunal. Although, this often means 15 mins before Tribunal!

floss2

Amber, have you been in touch with ACAS? What have they said? Have they mentioned an approach to the employer for settlement yet?

jobbingmusician

Yes, send everything. I have more to say about the format, but no time till tonight (nothing serious) - well done in putting all this together.

Amber07

Scrap the last - I got a list of their documents

O...M...G.....

It's just a list so far - but there are 45 or so items on it. Some which we have never heard of or seen before. I will give it a day to see if they send the hard copies of them all, if not I will email a request.

And it seems to be just documents....no other opinions or reasons they are there. Ours need to be rejigged again and added to - guess what I will be doing when I get in from work tonight

Plus, they are hitting him with everything by the looks of it - even stuff which we thought was dropped (there were only 3 things listed in his dismissal) such as the banking error mentioned in post #8.

He went to work this morning feeling ill and really downhearted. He had such a good meeting with a witness last night and we were feeling so good about everything until he opened that email.

Ah well, adapt and overcome and all that...