Advice about dismissal - please

jobbingmusician

It may be worth asking them again if they have a bullying/harrassment procedure. Certainly look for examples of bullying in the disc proc, because what they should SHOULD have done is to say something like 'we have concluded that your actions on [these dates] constituted deliberate and sustained bullying, which is directly in contravention of the bullying and harrassment policy which was ciculated to all staff in our memo of [date].' Or 'which is behaviour expressly prohibited by the staff disciplinary policy (see paragraph 6 of the policy)'. I really can't see that loosely defined bullying (even in the very unlikely sounding situation where your OH HAD done it!) constitutes gross misconduct without
- physical violence, or
- it being a sustained and deliberate campaign (I can just about get my head round the situation where the employer might not have been able to address it early enough because the bullied person was so intimidated, but I think it would have to be pretty extreme), or
- a proper 3 stage disciplinary process where the bully had been warned, given examples of their behaviour, and been invited/helped to improve their workstyle!

I wouldn't hold off on the statement, by the way - I'd start making notes now, as it's very difficult to get everything in. The way I work is to keep adding in bits as I remember them, or other documents make it obvious they need to be included, but you are probably more organised than I am (this is NOT difficult!) and so work differently.

Ooo, a hint while I think of it - how about ringing your local ET office, explaining that you have one coming up, and asking if you can go and watch one? It will probably give you lots of ideas!

Amber07

^^Good points there, I shall look further into it (will be in the morning now, I am knacked after my busy weekend!)

There was definitely no physical violence, or bullying over a period of time. There were no complaints put in at all from employees regarding OH, ever.

Apparently OH shouted at someone and upset them once...but the person concerned had made a major mistake that could have caused a serious accident, had OH not spotted it and corrected him. This is the main bullying allegation the company seems to be trying to use but again, the employee concerned hadn't complained.


I would love to go and see a ET in action, and have considered it, but OH works Mon-Fri and I have 3 young children, so getting the time away isn't easy.

Amber07

How does this sound.....

Send a bundle to the employers with all the statement/procedural irregularities and the documentation and defense regarding the 3 allegations. (Still very detailed)

Then....prepare a second bundle (which is nearly done anyway) with all the extra allegations and comments in it and hold off until I receive theirs or hear from the tribunal stating what is required.

Then, if their bundle is extremely detailed (and I will know exactly what allegations we are having to fight) send them the second 'updated' bundle.

As long as they receive it before the tribunal is should be ok shouldn't it?

What is niggling at me is, if the tribunal sees a list of allegations rather than just two or three, is it not going to suggest to them that there must be probable cause for OH's dismissal, even though a lot of things were twisted and only 'discovered' withing a 10 day period, it could make it hard to concentrate on the main issues, which I want to be the procedural errors and the fabrication of the employee witness statements.

Amber07

Amber07 wrote: »

I went to see our new witness and, in a nutshell:

- They told him he was being bullied and asked the guys to write a statement to that fact. The employee handed his in and they wrote it up but when he got it back they had reworded it and added bits - he said those weren't all his words, and he went through his statement scoring out the parts that he didn't write (the worst parts as it happens)

I can't believe I have only just thought of this....

We have a witness stating that he was asked/told to write a statement, then they were rewritten and he now says parts have been added. Can we ask for the ORIGINAL statements to be supplied, and what would happen if they couldn't produce them?

jobbingmusician

I have to admit that the last 2 questions you've asked are beyond my expertise! Sorry, but I'd much rather admit this than just go quiet, or mislead you. I'm hoping one of the others may have more experience.

My thoughts are as follows (bear in mind the time and the fact that I am mystery shopping a hotel tonight, so have been FORCED to drink a large glass of wine and a liqueur )

1. Re sending a bundle now and a bundle later, my gut reaction is against this idea for two reasons.

a) I feel it might be better to let them sweat and keep as many cards close to your chest as you can for as long as possible. If you send an early bundle, they have seen quite a lot of your case, and even though your case sounds pretty watertight, I think you might get more out of them by leaving your details as late as possible and letting them spend loads of money on legal fees trying to defend anything they think you might throw at them.

b) not sure how a tribunal would view this (but this is about the fact this is outside my area of knowledge).

2. This might well be worth a try (although it does mean revealing some of your case). Has your witness provided a written statement (and it suddenly occurs to me it might be a good idea to get this witnessed) and are you 100% certain s/he will come to the tribunal? If so, you could try writing saying you have this sworn statement (or maybe saying that there are some discrepancies????), and asking for the original transcription. (I am such a cow - I suspect that if you use the word transcription it might scare them by implying they have a duty to provide a verbatim statement! )

However, I stress that this may NOT be best advice. This sounds like the sort of question it would be worth asking the CAB, if there's any chance of this.....

I'm looking forward to seeing what others think about these issues. Both sound as if you are still coming up with good and positive ideas!

Amber07

jobbingmusician wrote: »

2. This might well be worth a try (although it does mean revealing some of your case). Has your witness provided a written statement (and it suddenly occurs to me it might be a good idea to get this witnessed) and are you 100% certain s/he will come to the tribunal? If so, you could try writing saying you have this sworn statement (or maybe saying that there are some discrepancies????), and asking for the original transcription. (I am such a cow - I suspect that if you use the word transcription it might scare them by implying they have a duty to provide a verbatim statement! )

Thank you for your admission about expertise, I appreciate the points you have made though.

I actually have a recorded conversation with this witness (with his full permission) and it was at his home with his mother present (he is 19) I done this in case he changed his mind about turning up for the tribunal

I'm liking that word 'transcription'...I am thinking I might just adopt that into my next letter.:rotfl:

Also, we do not have a copy of their bullying and harassment procedure. Another letter being fired off for that one.

Can you tell I am a lot cheerier now - it may be 3am but I have completed the bundle, including OH's statement. I hit a happy medium with the defense of the allegations and said bundle is 29 pages, plus Appendixes A to G.

:j:j:j:j


Never again!!:rotfl:

Amber07

jobbingmusician wrote: »

a) I feel it might be better to let them sweat and keep as many cards close to your chest as you can for as long as possible. If you send an early bundle, they have seen quite a lot of your case, and even though your case sounds pretty watertight, I think you might get more out of them by leaving your details as late as possible and letting them spend loads of money on legal fees trying to defend anything they think you might throw at them.

Just wondering - I thought we had to let them see our side of the case, including arguments/evidence, well before the tribunal?

I have been trying to put to the the fact that we are watertight (helefully!:o) in our arguments in the hope that they will decide to settle before the ET

I'm holding off sending if for just now

Gosh this is way more difficult than preparing for the appeal lol

jobbingmusician

Amber07 wrote: »

Just wondering - I thought we had to let them see our side of the case, including arguments/evidence, well before the tribunal?

I have been trying to put to the the fact that we are watertight (helefully!:o) in our arguments in the hope that they will decide to settle before the ET

I'm holding off sending if for just now

Gosh this is way more difficult than preparing for the appeal lol

What has your tribunal said about this? I don't remember exchanging bundles well before the hearing date in any case I have been involved in (ahem! in which I have been involved....) although, to be fair, the cases in which I have been the employer have had a lawyer, so I suppose being a lawyer they could have sat on the bundle for a while before telling me it was in. And as you know, when I was the respondent we did not pre-exchange. I certainly would not send a bundle until either you receive one, or are asked for one by the court, or by the respondent with an agreed exchange date (i.e. you show me yours and I'll show you mine :rotfl:). I can't remember whether you have got a hearing date yet? Honestly my memory is chronic, but I think we (the lawyers and I) usually started talking about the bundle about a week before the hearing.

Hmm, thinking about this some more I think the court is probably the determinant of this timescale, or should be. They are usually very nice people at the court, who are very careful not to help you with your case because they are not allowed to, but I think they wouldn't mind being asked when you should exchange bundles and how you avoid sending yours first... If you rang them and asked when you should send your bundle off, stressing that you haven't received one yet, they might well say some useful things. You've probably had some helpful leaflets from the court, haven't you? What do they say?

Must go now as I have to get to breakfast by 8.30 and then write another War and Peace about what it was like....... (still in mystery hotel mode!)

Joelleski

Just read through your entire thread, and whilst I cannot offer any help, I did feel compelled to wish you and your OH luck with the forthcoming ET .. am horrified at the way in which he's been treated! Hope you guys give 'em hell!

Amber07

jobbingmusician wrote: »

Hmm, thinking about this some more I think the court is probably the determinant of this timescale, or should be. They are usually very nice people at the court, who are very careful not to help you with your case because they are not allowed to, but I think they wouldn't mind being asked when you should exchange bundles and how you avoid sending yours first... If you rang them and asked when you should send your bundle off, stressing that you haven't received one yet, they might well say some useful things. You've probably had some helpful leaflets from the court, haven't you? What do they say?

Hmmm - I think that is what I shall do - give them a phone call tomorrow and check on the procedure.

Maybe the employers are trying to be a bit hasty in asking for all our documents first.