Employment Tribunal Help

mosdee

Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow.
I have responded to points you made in blue.
I hope this doesn’t cause confusions.

Hi Mosdee,
Maybe it would have been best for me to have put together a timeline for my own use instead of having to read every posting again to check out things

As I see it now:-

1/ Still maintain that you have a claim for unfair dismissal due to failure to follow the correct minimal procedures and would appear that you have the evidence to back it up. I believe I do have the evidence to back this up.

2/ Victimisation - can see where you are coming from, what evidence can you produce?
Irregularities on lodgements which were caused by faults systems. This happened to other staff members but I was singled out.

On the 2 days of the allegation, other staff members worked in the shop but they were not interviewed nor accused of taking monies.

General manager acknowledged that I would be dismissed if I raised a grievance and reached stage 2 (this was said in the presence of a staff member and union rep). Not sure if I can get him to confess during hearing.

They used policies I was never advised of before which they never used against other staff members.

I have one letter which stated that my contract was reduced because I had requested for this or because I was placed in a different working area with less hours (this was done without my consent) please note the letter stated 2 reasons and it was given to me after the 2nd change of my contracted hours.


I don’t have the first letter which threatened me with cease of employment.

We should assume that your employers will say that they cannot find the copy of the letter they sent requesting you to sign and return contract. Why? because if the contents were 'exactly' as you have stated then this would prove that you were victimised and made to sign under a threat of the losing your job. Without this it would be your word against theirs, how ever it would reflect upon them badly that such correspondence had not been properly filed and also the normal practice would be to consult with an employee prior to any variation of terms and conditions (substantive terms mainly) so at tribunal it would be interesting if they were able to produce any evidence to support any form of consultation. (No consultation whatsoever) Contracts are normally written agreements between 2 people who sign a copy for each party involved and variations can only be made through agreement of parties involved. That’s putting it very simply!

A little confusion on this point- I have just noticed in your last posting the following-
"The only concern I have is the fact that I signed the contract and did not formally raise complaint until 3 years letter."
Are you saying that the contract you were forced to sign was three years ago? If so I think that you would be deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions in the contract through waiting 3 years to raise a grievance. This is my concern, but then I was extremely concerned about the number of times my contract was amended. It would appear that they were changing my contract every other year. I thought that the terms were changed last year (when you signed another contract under threat) and that is what you raised the grievance about. Can clarify this point.

To clarify on this point:
Employed - 2004 fixed for 6 months (contract was to be extended, made permanent or terminated)
Extended – mid 2005 fixed for 6 months
Made permanent – end 2005 hours reduced (this was when 1st letter was sent to me)
Another contract – mid 2006 hours changed again (I spoke to 2 people asking about these changes)

A 2nd letter was issued – mid 2007 (this letter stated 2 different reasons why my hours were changed) such was the confusion my employer caused. (I asked why my hours had been changed, I was asked to take copies of my contracts to support my concerns. I had misplaced my contract.

Mid 2008 – I raised concerns about changes in my contract.


3/ Wrongful dismissal - I have looked through postings again and, unless I have missed it, cannot see reference to what happened once you were dismissed. Did you receive any pay in lieu of notice (PILON), did you receive any holiday pay you were owed up to the point of dismissal? What does your employees hand book say in relation to entitlements on dismissal. No pay in lieu of notice and no holiday pay. I do not have the hand book, was asked to return all company’s property in my possession.

The following is from the BERR website in which I have highlighted some parts
Rights to notice

Legislation gives the right both to employer and employee of a minimum period of notice of termination of employment, provided that the employee has been continuously employed for one month or more.
If a contract of employment gives the employer or the employee rights to longer notice than the minimum in the legislation, then the longer period of notice applies. 4 weeks notice (contract states that 1 week for every year of employment)
The legislation does not prevent either employers or employees from waiving their rights to notice or from accepting a payment in lieu of notice. Nor does the Act affect the right of either party to terminate the contract without notice if the conduct of the other justifies it. The question of whether termination without notice is justified depends on the circumstances of the individual case and in the event of dispute can be finally determined only by the courts or employment tribunals.

My comment on the above is that you need to check your hand book to see if notice pay when dismissed for gross missconduct is excluded, although I would have thought that good practice would have prevailed and notice pay would have been forthcoming (However these are trying times economically so any get out clause could be used to make savings) The contract stated that they deserve the right to dismiss without notice or payment.


Right to minimum pay during the notice period

An employee whose contract of employment specifies normal working hours and who works throughout those hours during the period of notice is entitled to receive normal pay for that period in accordance with the terms of contract.


My comment on this is that it would appear that the contractual rate of pay should be paid for your normal contracted hours and therefore over time would not be taken into account. My employer stated that my salary was £22000 based on 45 hours yet my contract had been reduced to 35. I could not understand this.

So still a case for unfair dismissal at least. Try to refrain from using 'NO Win No Fee' firms. Go online and find local companies that do legal aid work and take up the offer of 'a free 30 minute consultation' that most offer just to see if they think you have a case, try more than one, choose the one that you feel happiest with. Don't give up on the possibility of representing yourself its still an option. Than you for this advice, I am looking around.

As for disadvantages of raising more than issue at a tribunal - if you have eveidence to support each claim then yes why not, it could only work in your favour to show that you have been unfairly treated and that the employers have not complied with employment legislation.

Oh one last point tribunals will look at how you have tried to mitigate your loss, ie have you tried to get employment/training since dismissal, and they may take that into account if you win your claim and if you have done nothing to lessen your losses then they could reduce any award they make. Just a point you bare in mind. Thank you for this advice, I have asked to do some training into retail service and interview approach coaching. I have applied for over 70 jobs.

Good Luck.

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow

Hi Mosdee,
Confusion reigns!!!!

I have copied over parts of the previous post to save typing and made comments in another colour.

2/ Victimisation - can see where you are coming from, what evidence can you produce?
Irregularities on lodgements which were caused by faults systems. This happened to other staff members but I was singled out.
Will you be able to provide any evidence of the faults you mention, would theree be any witnesses who would collaberate this. Can you prove that you were singled out - you could put the point at the tribunal that you were treated unfairly as they did not apply the same sanctions to other staff members.

On the 2 days of the allegation, other staff members worked in the shop but they were not interviewed nor accused of taking monies. Again can you prove there were other staff in the shop at that time, can prove that they were not interviewed.

General manager acknowledged that I would be dismissed if I raised a grievance and reached stage 2 (this was said in the presence of a staff member and union rep). Not sure if I can get him to confess during hearing. Point could be made at tribunal but again where is the proof, they are highly unlikely to admit this and rep probably won't be off any use either although you could have him called as a witness but that could be very risky to your case overall if he backs up their version.

They used policies I was never advised of before which they never used against other staff members. Again proof of this will be required, if your contract stated that an employee manual was available at a certain place in the works then it would have been your responsibility to read it so you understood what practices they could use. Normal practice would be to advise staff on any changes to this manual but if there had been no changes then ignorance of the contents of the manual would not be an argument you would win with.

Re changes to your contract. You could argue the point about the frequency being unacceptable and raise the point that there was never any consultations, you could point out that the one letter you still have gave 2 reasons for the reduction and argue that the letter should have been issued prior to the reduction to allow consultation but this did not happen.

A 2nd letter was issued – mid 2007 (this letter stated 2 different reasons why my hours were changed) such was the confusion my employer caused. (I asked why my hours had been changed, I was asked to take copies of my contracts to support my concerns. I had misplaced my contract. Who did you ask, did you put this in writing, again where is the proof to back this up.

Mid 2008 – I raised concerns about changes in my contract. If this was the same concerns as mid 2007 I would be asking why so long, you have worked a year under that contract so I assume that you have accepted it. You could raise the point that the grievance of 2007 was not dealt with properly but the question would be why so long. Its your word against theirs with strong evidence.

I do not have the hand book, was asked to return all company’s property in my possession. You are, I assume still going through the grievance procedure so you are entitled to have and keep the employee hand book for your own reference so that you can follow the procedures that they require.

The contract stated that they reserve the right to dismiss without notice or payment. As do most companies hand books but only in certain circumstances, this iswhy you need to get the handbook back again to see when this might apply. They will have to prove to the tribunal that they acted fairly when they took this course of action.

My employer stated that my salary was £22000 based on 45 hours yet my contract had been reduced to 35. I could not understand this.
Where did they state this, and was your salary reduced as well.

have asked to do some training into retail service and interview approach coaching. I have applied for over 70 jobs. i don't doubt that you have done this but you must be able to support this with letters from potential employers turning down your applications etc and provide proof of your request for training.

As I have said many times the tribunal will need as much evidence as possible to come to a clear decision otherwise it will be your word against theirs which is not a good scenario. How ever do not forget that the other side will be expected to provide their own evidence to refute your claims. paint them in a bad light and let the tribunal ask to see their evidence which if they cannot do so will obviously help your situation.

Good luck

mosdee

Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow for your advice and comments.


I have a problem with evidence about my contract issues. Before I formally wrote to the general manager, I had spoken to a few people (line managers and union rep).

The reason why my employer sent me a letter (which threatened me with cease of contract) was after I raised questions about the reduction. I did not sign the contract right way. So they sent me that letter. This was when I signed and sent a copy back (did not read through properly though).

Then I had another contract issues with a change in my hours again. I raised questions again. My employer issued me with a letter which stated 2 reasons for this change. This letter was issued well after my hours had been changed twice.

The grievance is getting too much. I am not going to appeal for a 3rd time. My employer took over 60 days to respond to my original grievance. Then over 80 days to respond to the grievance appeal.

They also failed to provide me with the grievance procedure initially. It was posted to me last week after the grievance appeal hearing.

I think they will state that I did not exhaust their grievance procedure. I tired of their tactics.

They asked me to take back company's property in my possession if I didn't they would not pay me any monies and action would be taken against me. So I took back everything including the staff hand book.

I made queries regarding my contract verbally to two people (line manager and a union rep) I have no proof for this.

The salary statement was made in my contract. This was when my working hours were reduced from 45. Due to a reduction in my working hours, my salary was reduced. I believe the statement in the contract was to cause confusion so it would not look like they reduced the salary (this issue is complicated to be honest).

With regards to looking for work and training, I have proof of this no doubt. I’m not only doing it for the tribunal. I’m seriously looking for a new job. I registered with my borough’s programs to find me a job. I guess I will ask for copies of written proof.

I appreciate your help. I’m collecting as much evidence as I can possibly get my hands on.

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow

Hi Mosdee,
I can understand that this must all be waring you down, which in itself could be a tactical ploy that they are using!

Evidence is really crucial for the tribunal but just because you don't have it that doesn't not mean to say that at the tribunal you could say just what you have written here, a little more detailed though such as approximate dates, who was involved (name them) and where anything happened. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to demonstrate that they did not consult with you at any time re changes in your terms and conditions of employment, that they only furnished you with letters after the fact, that they have only recently given you details of their grievance procedures and that they did not deal with these grievances within a reasonable length of time by anybodies standards. To top that off you can mention that when you recently attended an appeal hearing they thought it was just the 1st grievance meeting. All in all they obviously have not got a clue!

Without the evidence you will have to rely upon the tribunal asking for them to prove that the correct procedures were carried out in relation to the changes and if they can provide evidence to support this. (which I dare say that as they have enough time now they could have put together some papers which they could say were evidence of the procedures they followed) Worst scenario is that they just say that you are fabricating this story just to try and lend credance to your other claims and hence they would not have any paperwork relating to this time. This is why you should put together a good and detailed account of what happened as they may hold some weight with the tribunal. Long shot I know but nothing ventured nothing gained I say. If they do make reference to not completing the grievance procedure I would ask if they or indeed the tribunal board would see delays of 60 then 80 days as being a reasonable period in which to reply to a grievance.

Re proof of how you are mitigating your losses. I believe that you are trying your hardest to obtain work but the tribunal will once again need proof of this so the more evidence you can provide will once again show you in a good light.

Best really concentrate on the case where you do have evidence. Had any luck with legal aid lawyers yet?

Keep positive, think positive and don't give up now.

mosdee

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »

Hi Mosdee,
I can understand that this must all be waring you down, which in itself could be a tactical ploy that they are using!

Evidence is really crucial for the tribunal but just because you don't have it that doesn't not mean to say that at the tribunal you could say just what you have written here, a little more detailed though such as approximate dates, who was involved (name them) and where anything happened. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to demonstrate that they did not consult with you at any time re changes in your terms and conditions of employment, that they only furnished you with letters after the fact, that they have only recently given you details of their grievance procedures and that they did not deal with these grievances within a reasonable length of time by anybodies standards. To top that off you can mention that when you recently attended an appeal hearing they thought it was just the 1st grievance meeting. All in all they obviously have not got a clue!

Without the evidence you will have to rely upon the tribunal asking for them to prove that the correct procedures were carried out in relation to the changes and if they can provide evidence to support this. (which I dare say that as they have enough time now they could have put together some papers which they could say were evidence of the procedures they followed) Worst scenario is that they just say that you are fabricating this story just to try and lend credance to your other claims and hence they would not have any paperwork relating to this time. This is why you should put together a good and detailed account of what happened as they may hold some weight with the tribunal. Long shot I know but nothing ventured nothing gained I say. If they do make reference to not completing the grievance procedure I would ask if they or indeed the tribunal board would see delays of 60 then 80 days as being a reasonable period in which to reply to a grievance.

Re proof of how you are mitigating your losses. I believe that you are trying your hardest to obtain work but the tribunal will once again need proof of this so the more evidence you can provide will once again show you in a good light.

Best really concentrate on the case where you do have evidence. Had any luck with legal aid lawyers yet?

Keep positive, think positive and don't give up now.

Thank you for your help JM

Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow for your advise.

I am trying very hard to find a new job. I have about 10 rejections. The current climate is not helping in this situation. I have proof of my job search.

I am still trying to get legal aid lawyers. One thing I found out is they cannot represent me on legal aid. So I am preparing to represent my self. I'm not worried about the whole experience though. If I represent my self, I will be fighting 6 people at the ET. (Employer’s solicitor stated that 5 witnesses will be called).

Your comments and advise are much appreciated.

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow

Hi Mosdee,
Have you a date for your tribunal? have you received any of the othersides evidence that they will be presenting at the tribunal, have they named the 5 witnesses if they have then do you know why they are being called, what evidence are they going to bring to the tribunal against you, have you indeed been contacted by ACAS about conciliation? At your CMD did you request for the other side to provide you with any documention that you will require for the tribunal, if so have they complide? There is a time restriction for compliance with such a request.

Your strength lies in the failure to follow the correct procedures of which you have evidence to support your claim, you must make sure that this is the first claim to be heard at the tribunal as I don't believe that any witnesses will have an effect on how they dealt with this procedure. If they present their case first make sure where ever possible that you ask for them to provide supporting documentary evidence for anything and everything that they said they did or said. Make them sweat as you can be sure that their lawyer will do the same to you and you must not rise to the bait in reply to any of their questions, provide only the answers to their questions and do not digress into other areas that may just lead you into becoming confused about times places or events and people.

Good Luck

MSXer

Hi Mosdee,

Good luck with the tribunal - I found (as well as MSE of course) direct.gov.uk, employment-tribunal-compensation-claims.co.uk and employmenttribunals.gov.uk useful sources of info... might help?

dmg24

Please do not use the second site mentioned by MSXer, it is not an official site, and the poster appears to be spamming.

mosdee

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »

Hi Mosdee,
Have you a date for your tribunal? have you received any of the othersides evidence that they will be presenting at the tribunal, have they named the 5 witnesses if they have then do you know why they are being called, what evidence are they going to bring to the tribunal against you, have you indeed been contacted by ACAS about conciliation? At your CMD did you request for the other side to provide you with any documention that you will require for the tribunal, if so have they complide? There is a time restriction for compliance with such a request.

Your strength lies in the failure to follow the correct procedures of which you have evidence to support your claim, you must make sure that this is the first claim to be heard at the tribunal as I don't believe that any witnesses will have an effect on how they dealt with this procedure. If they present their case first make sure where ever possible that you ask for them to provide supporting documentary evidence for anything and everything that they said they did or said. Make them sweat as you can be sure that their lawyer will do the same to you and you must not rise to the bait in reply to any of their questions, provide only the answers to their questions and do not digress into other areas that may just lead you into becoming confused about times places or events and people.

Good Luck

Hi Burny Sweetwater Glasgow,

Thank you for this peace of info. I'm learning a lot about ET from you and Jobbingmusician.

No I have not had a date for the tribunal hearing yet (I phoned the tribunal to request for the orders from the CMD, I was advised that the orders were being prepared).

No I haven't received evidence from the other side yet (the disclosure date I think is 15th or 20th next month, I'm waiting for orders from tribunal).

No they haven't named the 5 witnesses as I haven't had their evidence yet. ACAS contacted me when they received a copy of my ET1 form from the tribunal. I haven't heard from ACAS again.

No I did not request for any documents from the other said, I thought I would do that on a later date.

I hope I don't lose it when I get to the day. My major problem is, when I get upset, I just what to burst or shout at people. I hope I will stay composed.

Burny Sweetwater Glasgow, please post as much comments/advice as you possibly can.
I do appreciate that.
Also a BIG thank you to everyone else here who has contributed to this post.

hafe4k

Hi All,
After reading through this thread have read really helpful posts. Hope you can advice me as well.

So, this is on behalf of my sister, i posted here:http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1585711

I received really helpful advice, as she has not had any response from the second letter we are thinking of taking it further to the ET. Is there a good case for her? Any tips of do's & dont's? And just to clarify she has never had a written contract, will this complicate things?

Thanks for your help.