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Employment Tribunal Help
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Just want to say when an employer acts like yours the best thing to do is send them two copies of any correspondence from now on.
You are acting reasonably by doing so as they obviously have a problem with their email server. :rolleyes:
At the bottom of the letters state the 2 methods you used to send the message to them.
So if you have a fax machine then send the email to them by fax as well and get print out of the verification that you sent the fax to them.
Alternatively use registered post as well as email.
Then put both copies of the letter plus the fax verification/registered post slip in your bundle.
I had an ex-employer who claimed more than once in writing to the tribunal that they had not received any of my correspondence sent by email, mail or fax. I then put a bundle together for my directions hearing consisting of the correspondence they claimed not to have received with the fax slips and registered post slips and 3 copies in on the day.
Needless to say they were surprised as it's not normal to do this.
To put it bluntly tribunal chairman are not surprised by companies doing tricks like this and if you can prove that that it's highly likely that they would have received your correspondence then it helps you.
It is surprising and upsetting for a big company to act like that. I can't wait for this to get to an end.0 -
Hello everyone, I thought I would make some update on my case.
I attended a grievance appeal hearing. The hearing officer said that the meeting was a grievance hearing. I notified him that as far as I was concerned the meeting was a grievance appeal hearing for my rejected grievance. We could not agree upon what the meeting was. The hearing officer was trying to say that it was the 1st hearing for my grievance. Whatever the case I asked him to proceed with the meeting.
As the meeting commenced, he refereed to a letter posted to me in rejection of my grievance. I asked him why he was referring to that letter when he had stated that the meeting was not an appeal. There was so much confusion.
The hearing officer asked me to wait for half an hour so he could look into my concerns. When we returned, he told me he could not give me a response. He said he needed more time to talk to a couple of people. He said he would respond in 7 days. That is where I am so far.
I have one big dilemma about my contracted hours. That was the issue I raised before I was accused of stealing unidentified sum of money. My contracted hours were reduced after a fixed term of 6 months. (Please note the contract was to be extended, made permanent or terminated)
I signed the contract which I didn’t read thoroughly. This was because I received a letter from my employer which stated that my contract would cease if I did not return a copy. I know that signing a contract binds one to it.
However does that mean wrong practice could be over looked because of a signature?
Money savers could you please advise on “employment contract law”
Thank you everyone that has made contributions towards this post.0 -
Hi Mosdee,
What a load of numpties:rotfl:
Contract law is a completely different sphere to employment law and I cannot give any advice on that. The only thing I could say is why did they say your job will cease if you don't return a copy, had they sent one before, had they forgotten to issue one. If you still have that letter it might be useful for once again showing how they have treated you in the past. If I were you I would just continue with the tribunal, contact them (tribunal) and let them know what happened at the last meeting and say that you want to proceed without further delays by the employer. I, personally, don't think that this appeal to do with your original grievance has any bearing on your claim for unfair dismissal. You have been patient long enough and you need to get your life back on track.
Good luck.0 -
Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »Hi Mosdee,
What a load of numpties:rotfl:
Contract law is a completely different sphere to employment law and I cannot give any advice on that. The only thing I could say is why did they say your job will cease if you don't return a copy, had they sent one before, had they forgotten to issue one. If you still have that letter it might be useful for once again showing how they have treated you in the past. If I were you I would just continue with the tribunal, contact them (tribunal) and let them know what happened at the last meeting and say that you want to proceed without further delays by the employer. I, personally, don't think that this appeal to do with your original grievance has any bearing on your claim for unfair dismissal. You have been patient long enough and you need to get your life back on track.
Good luck.
The reason I asked by contract law is:
I raised another claim of victimisation which is based on contract issues I raised that were never fully resolved.
I lost a copy of the letter I mentioned above. However, when I attended a meeting with the general manager back in September last year, he had a copy of this letter. I have requested for copies of all letters which were posted to me with regards to my contract, unfortunately my employer has refused to provide those letters.
During the grievance appeal hearing, the hearing officer asked me why I took so long to raise my concerns about my contracted hours.
(The fact is I did informally raise concerns with my immediate line manager and a union representative. Both those people asked me to bring copies of my contracts which I had misplaced)
This is a nightmare!
I appreciate your advice.
I would like to say jobbingmusian has been so helpful.0 -
Hi Mosdee,
You may not appreciate this answer but I stand by my last posting. You have applied to the tribunal on the grounds of unfair dismissal, this grievance has nothing to do with your case other than informing the tribunal of how they have previously treated you. Problem there is that you have no substantiating evidence to back up this up with. Tribunals are used to hearing people bicker about this and that and without a great deal of evidence they will not really take much notice. How ever if you can back up the current position i.e. failure to provide you with copies of previous correspondence with written refusal by them then that may help paint a picture of them not treating you fairly.
How ever as I said you are persuing unfair dismissal so stick to that as I believe, from what you have told us, you do have the evidence to back up your claim.
You will not be able to introduce any additional claim now that you have submitted the ET1 and anyway without firm evidence you will not have a great chance of winning such a case.0 -
Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »Hi Mosdee,
You may not appreciate this answer but I stand by my last posting. You have applied to the tribunal on the grounds of unfair dismissal, this grievance has nothing to do with your case other than informing the tribunal of how they have previously treated you. Problem there is that you have no substantiating evidence to back up this up with. Tribunals are used to hearing people bicker about this and that and without a great deal of evidence they will not really take much notice. How ever if you can back up the current position i.e. failure to provide you with copies of previous correspondence with written refusal by them then that may help paint a picture of them not treating you fairly.
How ever as I said you are persuing unfair dismissal so stick to that as I believe, from what you have told us, you do have the evidence to back up your claim.
You will not be able to introduce any additional claim now that you have submitted the ET1 and anyway without firm evidence you will not have a great chance of winning such a case.
Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow for your advice.
You are right. I am sticking with my original claim. However when I attended the CMD, it was then that the chairman (judge) asked to clarify my claim(s) because of the information contained in my ET form. I confirmed that;
1st was unfair dismissal
2nd was victimasations.
3rd wrongful dismissal, (this one was not accepted because I had not notified the defendant. But then I realised that I still had time to submit this claim)
The judge asked me if I raised a grievance about the 2nd claim. I showed him a copy of my grievance letter. He also had a look at my ET1 form.
He accepted the second claim. He asked the representative to respond by end of this month.
Let me hope I'm not making confusing statements here.
My main concern about the second claim is the fact that I signed the contract. I was wondering if anyone can offer advice about contract law.0 -
Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »Hi Mosdee,
You may not appreciate this answer but I stand by my last posting. You have applied to the tribunal on the grounds of unfair dismissal, this grievance has nothing to do with your case other than informing the tribunal of how they have previously treated you. Problem there is that you have no substantiating evidence to back up this up with. Tribunals are used to hearing people bicker about this and that and without a great deal of evidence they will not really take much notice. How ever if you can back up the current position i.e. failure to provide you with copies of previous correspondence with written refusal by them then that may help paint a picture of them not treating you fairly.
How ever as I said you are persuing unfair dismissal so stick to that as I believe, from what you have told us, you do have the evidence to back up your claim.
You will not be able to introduce any additional claim now that you have submitted the ET1 and anyway without firm evidence you will not have a great chance of winning such a case.
I think this is a very useful answer. As you may have gathered from mosdee's previous post, I have been helping her (or is it him? I have assumed it's a her, but can't remember if I know this for sure) put a statement together. I think that there are elements of how the grievance was handled (ignored for months, appeal hearing heard well after dismissal) which impact the unfair dismissal claim, but I also think you are right and I will look at the statement again in the light of re-focusing on the procedures followed (or not!) during the disciplinary process.
Mosdee - I won't be able to do much more with your statement until early next week, I'm afraid, although I am about halfway through so far. Also, in your last post above I don't think you've stressed the point about your contract being based on specified hours - try saying it like you told it to me! (I'm deliberately being a bit vague in case you don't want to share the info for any reason)Ex board guide. Signature now changed (if you know, you know).0 -
Hi Musician,
I saw Mosdees' post earlier and my thought was, what a mess! In my post I felt I was right with my advice but now that Mosdee has said that his claim was for 3 seperate areas I am not so sure. Firstly from the posts I did not realise that 'Victimisation' was going to be included so now i wonder if there is supporting evidence for this except what Mosdee can say at the tribunal and secondly would it be right to claim both unfair dismissal and wrongful dismissal at the same time. I suppose it could be possible, I have not tried to think of a situation that would be covered by this (but will have a think about it) but what struck me was, and I don't mean any offence to Mosdee, a sign of desperation 'I'll get them on one of these'. Don't get me wrong, I think you are privy to a greater amount of detail, there may well be a case for all 3 of the items that Mosdee has put on the ET1 but judging by what has been posted on this forum I would say that there is a claim for unfair dismissal (on the grounds of failure to follow the correct procedures)and that it seems as if there is sufficient evidence to back this up at a tribunal.
What ever happens I wish Mosdee the best of luck and that the tribunal eventually 'kick someones !!!'0 -
Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »Hi Musician,
I saw Mosdees' post earlier and my thought was, what a mess! In my post I felt I was right with my advice but now that Mosdee has said that his claim was for 3 seperate areas I am not so sure. Firstly from the posts I did not realise that 'Victimisation' was going to be included so now i wonder if there is supporting evidence for this except what Mosdee can say at the tribunal and secondly would it be right to claim both unfair dismissal and wrongful dismissal at the same time. I suppose it could be possible, I have not tried to think of a situation that would be covered by this (but will have a think about it) but what struck me was, and I don't mean any offence to Mosdee, a sign of desperation 'I'll get them on one of these'. Don't get me wrong, I think you are privy to a greater amount of detail, there may well be a case for all 3 of the items that Mosdee has put on the ET1 but judging by what has been posted on this forum I would say that there is a claim for unfair dismissal (on the grounds of failure to follow the correct procedures)and that it seems as if there is sufficient evidence to back this up at a tribunal.
What ever happens I wish Mosdee the best of luck and that the tribunal eventually 'kick someones !!!'
Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow
Thank you jobbingmusician
(I am a he) hahaha
Burny Sweetwater Glasgow your advice is much appreciated. You are right with what you have stated.
I would like say that when I submitted my ET1, it was based on unfair dismissal. This is the main claim.
Due to concerns I raised well before the allegation (contracted hours), I believe my employer got me out to stop me from persuing compensation. By the way, the chairman asked me if I had another claim besides unfair dismissal. This is when I confirmed victimisation as another claim.
I have to say that I had that advice from a solicitor who said would not represent me on a No Win No Fee basis. He said to me that from my statement, victimisation would be another claim. He also told me that, because I had not been give notice I would raise Wrongful dismissal as a 3rd claim. It appears to me that one claim can lead to other claims.
During the CMD, the judge asked me and my employer’s representative to give him sometime to look through things. When we returned, the judge accepted both cases Unfair dismissal and Victimisation. Wrongful dismissal was rejected because I had not notified the defendant.
The fact is my employer rejected my grievance through which I notified them that I felt I was victimised.
I understand that accepting the claim is far from winning. Considering the way my employer treated me, I will “display all their bad practice from all possible angles”.
The only concern I have is the fact that I signed the contract and did not formally raise complaint until 3 years letter. This is where I need specialist advice about contract law.
The only thing I’m missing is the letter my employer sent me asking me to return a signed copy or else my contract was to be ceased. I have requested for a copy of this letter which I haven’t received yet. I have another letter though which I was issued with when after my contract was changed for the 3rd time.
I would like to say my contract sated that my annual salary was £22000 based on 45 hours per week, but then my contracted hours were 30. Was this good practice?
Also, I would like to ask what disadvantages are there in raising other claims.
I have just had a repsonse from the grievance appeal hearing. They stated that I do not have a valid grievance. They asked me to appeal for stage 3 of the grievance. They also sent me a copy of the grievance procedure (over 100 days since I requested for this information)
Burny Sweetwater Glasgow your comments are very important because I get to know what I need to correct or clarify. So please don’t hold those comments back.
You and jobbingmusician’s help and advice are much appreciated.0 -
Hi Mosdee,
Maybe it would have been best for me to have put together a timeline for my own use instead of having to read every posting again to check out things:rotfl:
As I see it now:-
1/ Still maintain that you have a claim for unfair dismissal due to failure to follow the correct minimal procedures and would appear that you have the evidence to back it up.
2/ Victimisation - can see where you are coming from, what evidence can you produce? We should assume that your employers will say that they cannot find the copy of the letter they sent requesting you to sign and return contract. Why? because if the contents were 'exacly' as you have stated then this would prove that you were victimised and made to sign under a threat of the losing your job. Without this it would be your word against theirs, how ever it would reflect upon them badly that such correspondence had not been properly filed and also the normal practice would be to consult with an employee prior to any variation of terms and conditions (substantive terms mainly) so at tribunal it would be interesting if they were able to produce any evidence to support any form of consultation. Contracts are normally written agreements between 2 people who sign a copy for each party involved and variations can only be made through agreement of parties involved. Thats putting it very simply!
A little confusion on this point- I have just noticed in your last posting the following-
"The only concern I have is the fact that I signed the contract and did not formally raise complaint until 3 years letter."
Are you saying that the contract you were forced to sign was three years ago? If so I think that you would be deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions in the contract through waiting 3 years to raise a grievance. I thought that the terms were changed last year (when you signed another contract under threat) and that is what you raised the grievance about. Can clarify this point.
3/ Wrongful dismissal - I have looked through postings again and, unless I have missed it, cannot see reference to what happened once you were dismissed. Did you receive any pay in lieu of notice(PILON), did you receive any holiday pay you were owed up to the point of dismissal? What does your employees hand book say in relation to entitlements on dismissal
The following is from the BERR website in which I have highlighted some parts
Rights to notice
Legislation gives the right both to employer and employee of a minimum period of notice of termination of employment, provided that the employee has been continuously employed for one month or more.
If a contract of employment gives the employer or the employee rights to longer notice than the minimum in the legislation, then the longer period of notice applies.
The legislation does not prevent either employers or employees from waiving their rights to notice or from accepting a payment in lieu of notice. Nor does the Act affect the right of either party to terminate the contract without notice if the conduct of the other justifies it. The question of whether termination without notice is justified depends on the circumstances of the individual case and in the event of dispute can be finally determined only by the courts or employment tribunals.
My comment on the above is that you need to check your hand book to see if notice pay when dismissed for gross missconduct is excluded, although I would have thought that good practice would have prevailed and notice pay would have been forthcoming (However these are trying times economically so any get out clause could be used to make savings)
Right to minimum pay during the notice period
An employee whose contract of employment specifies normal working hours and who works throughout those hours during the period of notice is entitled to receive normal pay for that period in accordance with the terms of contract.
My comment on this is that it would appear that the contractual rate of pay should be paid for your normal contracted hours and therefore over time would not be taken into account
So still a case for unfair dismissal at least. Try to refrain from using 'NO Win No Fee' firms. Go online and find local companies that do legal aid work and take up the offer of 'a free 30 minute consultation' that most offer just to see if they think you have a case, try more than one, choose the one that you feel happiest with. Don't give up on the possibility of representing yourself its still an option.
As for disadvantages of raising more than issue at a tribunal - if you have eveidence to support each claim then yes why not, it could only work in your favour to show that you have been unfairly treated and that the employers have not complied with employment legislation.
Oh one last point tribunals will look at how you have tried to mitigate your loss, ie have you tried to get employment/training since dismissal, and they may take that into account if you win your claim and if you have done nothing to lessen your losses then they could reduce any award they make. Just a point you bare in mind.
Good Luck.0
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