Employment Tribunal Help

mosdee

Hello everyone,

I need some advice urgently.

I have had another letter from my employer asking me to attend a grievance appeal stage 2. It has been 76 days since I raised my grievance appeal.

I appealed against their rejection of my grievance and dismissal in January.

I had the dismissal appeal hearing 3 weeks ago. Last week I had a response, They upheld their decision to dismiss me.

In a letter my employer posted to me for the dismissal appeal hearing, they stated that my grievance appeal points would be heard during the dismissal appeal hearing.

My case management discussion is due this week. I’m wondering if I should go for grievance appeal hearing.
They are trying to show that they followed the right procedure.
What's the point of the grievance appeal hearing at this stage?
What should I do?
Money savers your advice will be appreciated

jobbingmusician

Hi mosdee

Sorry I'm in a big rush today, but just a quickie to say yes, attend anything they ask you to. You want to demonstrate to the ET that you have done everything you can to exhaust the internal procedures.

I know it feels awful, but they are obviously trying to demonstrate to the ET that they are letting you have a grievance procedure - but it's rather too little too late, isn't it! Do stress to them that you are happy to attend but very confused by their correspondence.

In the appeal hearing it is NOT a re-hearing of the disciplinary, but an appeal based on procedural points - the fact that you were not given minutes or recordings, not asked for your permission to make recordings or be mystery shopped, not allowed to challenge the MSer's report properly etc.

I think you'd be sensible to write down what you intend to say - and remember to stress to them how difficult it was for you that their timescales were so awful!

If you email me a list of the points you intend to make at the hearing I'll try to have a look at it.

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow

Hi Mosdee,
I can understand your confusion as I am confused myself even after reading through everything again 2 times. Again good advice from the musician.
I have never come across ' grievance appeal stage 2' before. As far as I am aware once you have appealed, a decision is made, and that is it, unless the appellant goes to tribunal. i have never heard of an appeal meeting dealing with both a grievance appeal and a dismissal appeal at the same meeting. Normal procedure is if a grievance is raised during a disciplinary meeting the meeting would be adjourned, so that a decision could be taken as to whether the grievance should be fully dealt with first before continuing with the disciplinary procedure. it could be decided to follow through with the disciplinary and deal with the grievance as a seperate item at a later date. However the way you have stated things here is that you raised a grievance over various items during one of the disciplnary meetings which I would have assumed were the reasons you later gave in requesting an appeal against your dismissal. Are they now wanting to hear your appeal relating to the much earlier grievance that was not dealt with properly? Or what?
You need to focus on your reason for applying to the tribunal which is that they failed to follow the correct procedures leading up to your dismissal which has nothing to do with their failure to complete the earlier (if thats whwt they have now written to you about) grievance procedure although it would be useful in painting a picture of continued failure to follow procedures laid down in their own employment handbook! Does the letter you received not clearly state which grievance they are wishing to hear your appeal, if it is the one brought up during the disciplanary hearing, I would have thought that it had been dealt with through your appeal against their decision to dismiss you which they have now confirmed that they have upheld the original decision.
Which ever one this appeal meeting relates to make sure that it deals only with the issues raised in the grievance and as the musician rightly says is not a re-hearing of the disciplinary and do not be afraid to put them right if they start to bring in anything which is not part of your appeal.
Excellent advice again from the musician about writing things down as it will keep you focused on what you are there to discuss.

Good luck we will be rooting for you:beer:

mosdee

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow wrote: »

Hi Mosdee,
I can understand your confusion as I am confused myself even after reading through everything again 2 times. Again good advice from the musician.
I have never come across ' grievance appeal stage 2' before. As far as I am aware once you have appealed, a decision is made, and that is it, unless the appellant goes to tribunal. i have never heard of an appeal meeting dealing with both a grievance appeal and a dismissal appeal at the same meeting. Normal procedure is if a grievance is raised during a disciplinary meeting the meeting would be adjourned, so that a decision could be taken as to whether the grievance should be fully dealt with first before continuing with the disciplinary procedure. it could be decided to follow through with the disciplinary and deal with the grievance as a seperate item at a later date. However the way you have stated things here is that you raised a grievance over various items during one of the disciplnary meetings which I would have assumed were the reasons you later gave in requesting an appeal against your dismissal. Are they now wanting to hear your appeal relating to the much earlier grievance that was not dealt with properly? Or what?
You need to focus on your reason for applying to the tribunal which is that they failed to follow the correct procedures leading up to your dismissal which has nothing to do with their failure to complete the earlier (if thats whwt they have now written to you about) grievance procedure although it would be useful in painting a picture of continued failure to follow procedures laid down in their own employment handbook! Does the letter you received not clearly state which grievance they are wishing to hear your appeal, if it is the one brought up during the disciplanary hearing, I would have thought that it had been dealt with through your appeal against their decision to dismiss you which they have now confirmed that they have upheld the original decision.
Which ever one this appeal meeting relates to make sure that it deals only with the issues raised in the grievance and as the musician rightly says is not a re-hearing of the disciplinary and do not be afraid to put them right if they start to bring in anything which is not part of your appeal.
Excellent advice again from the musician about writing things down as it will keep you focused on what you are there to discuss.

Good luck we will be rooting for you:beer:

Thank you Burny Sweetwater Glasgow I appreciate your advice and comments. Thank you for acknowledging jobbingmusician’s advice which has been very helpful.

I have been confused so badly. The company’s grievance procedure is in two stages. I don’t understand why.

The reason for the appeal against their rejection of my grievance was based on their investigation procedure and accusations. They took so long to respond to my appeal. They tried to complicate everything for me in every way they possibly could.

When they responded to the grievance appeal, they stated that I did not have a valid grievance. The response was back dated. I received the letter a day before I had received the dismissal letter. I appealed against the dismissal and the rejection of my grievance.

Because of that appeal hearing which is due next week. My employer requested for “direction” so that they finish dealing with the appeal. The tribunal accepted their request.

The grievance was based on these points below:
- the investigation and interviews were not done fairly
- I was not advised of the recording devices before the interview (I asked during interviews, I accepted and requested for a copy)
- I was denied access to the evidence collected during investigation
- The interviewer’s behaviour was not appropriate
- The information contained in the pack I was given after investigation was not accurate
- Mystery shopper was not independent (was member of staff and close to managers that carried out investigation)

If any one has a comment or advice about this issue please help and raise it.

mosdee

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Something has surprising happened today. I sent my employer an email to confirm my attendance for the grievance appeal hearing which is due next week and I also requested some documents. I accidentally sent the email before it was completed. After a while I sent a completed one. I then received an email which stated that my email was incomplete. They asked me to confirm what I wanted to request.

The second email was sent back (bounced). I sent 3 other emails to the same address but they all bounced. I realised that my emails were blocked. I quickly created another email account which I used to send the original email. Surprisingly it was received.

How childish is that? I thought I was dealing with responsible managers working for a big company, but this has proved otherwise.

The documents I requested for, I needed them for the hearing. I believe they will claim not to have received my email. They won’t be in the office till next Tuesday which will be too late to post me the documents.

What should I do?

jobbingmusician

Your employers really seem determined to shoot themselves in the foot, don't they! Print out all the verifications of the bouncing emails, and put them in your bundle for the tribunal.

Now, what I logged on to post....

I know you have already responded to the invitation to the appeal hearing, but I wanted to make these points here so that others can comment.

In response to the invitation to your I would write to them making the following points

- thank them for arranging the meeting and say that yes, you do have points about your grievance to raise. You still feel that you have been treated unfairly due to your questioning of your contracts. (Have they provided you with copies, by the way? If not, you should point this out and request that they send you copies before the hearing.)

- ask again for a copy of the grievance procedure (assuming that they have not sent it) and say that you are concerned by the extreme delay in dealing with your grievance.

- say that you understand that this is part of the GRIEVANCE procedure, and that it is not your intention to take part in a re-hearing of the disciplinary.

- say that you are happy for the meeting to be recorded IF you can have a copy of the recording, and a copy of the minutes after they have been finalised.

If you are feeling brave, you could also

- state that, given their unreasonable delay in hearing your grievance, and other irregularities in handling both the grievance and the disciplinary, you would be happy to discuss a COMPROMISE AGREEMENT. The last is important. Go away and look it up - it is an invitation to them to give you a good reference and a sum of money (or you might be happy just to settle for the reference. How much money, from zero upwards, is up to you to decide what you would be prepared to accept) in return for you signing an agreement that you will drop the ET. I can't stress too much that you should read up on the internet about compromise agreements. However, this is not to scare you - they are not complicated. The only thing is that your employer should pay for you to see an INDEPENDENT solicitor to make sure you understand what you are signing if you choose to go down this route. (Make sure they pay for the solicitor!)

Burny_Sweetwater_Glasgow

Hi Mosdee,
Again excellent advice from the musician!!!
This whole affair is a mess and I really feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot at every stage. How ever.....................

Consider carefully or should I say seriously, what the musician has said.

If I was in your shoes I would definetly do as he has suggested including the last part. Why? Because i feel that you would be offering them a solution to all of there failures and blunders that they have made throughout this whole affair. I know you may feel that this maybe letting them off lightly but you need to weigh this up with the stress and the strain of going to tribunal. You have already admitted in your postings that the whole thing is getting you down so maybe you should bite the bullit and try what has been suggested just to test the water. You don't need to accept any offer they come up with but they might just make it worth your while to bring closure to this so that you can get on with your life. Remember that if they have to pay for representation at the tribunal then it will not be cheap so it may just make commercial sense just to pay you off with a settlement for all this to go away. But make sure that they agree to pay for any legal advice (normal for this type of agreement), which you will require without a doubt.

Tough choice maybe but, nothing ventured nothing gained, and I would go for it to see what response I got. if you do decide to take this route I would suggest that you clearly state as many references you can to every failure they have made to follow the correct procedures along the way.

Good luck with what ever you decide and keep following the musicians advice its been solid on every occassion.

Diana_Prince

I don't know if I have anything to go on, but recently at work I feel like my bosses are trying to push me out!

It's a very small company with 2 managers (father and son) and it's VERY old fashioned and I don't always think they do things 'the right' way!

I have been there over 3 years and in that time one of the bosses has asked everyone else if I take a lot of drugs as I was away on a Monday, my brother was extremely ill in hospital and they couldn't understand me wanting to leave a bit earlier to drive the hour to the hosp to visit him!

Recently however I've been accused of not doing my job properly on more than one occasion and trust me they have no reason to say that - a monkey could probably do my job!

Then yest I had a 'talk' from my boss - he thinks I go out of my way to be unhelpful (not true), that I'm grumpy (only sometimes!), that I have poor concentration (not true), that I keep making lots of mistakes (he could only name one minor one when I asked), my attendance (this is the only true thing), he then said that if I want to leave to hand my notice in, but he doesn't want me to!

I spoke to a former employee and apparently they've done this before when they want someone to leave.

They aren't very nice people to work for!!

Sorry for the long post!!

mosdee

Diana_Prince wrote: »

I don't know if I have anything to go on, but recently at work I feel like my bosses are trying to push me out!

It's a very small company with 2 managers (father and son) and it's VERY old fashioned and I don't always think they do things 'the right' way!

I have been there over 3 years and in that time one of the bosses has asked everyone else if I take a lot of drugs as I was away on a Monday, my brother was extremely ill in hospital and they couldn't understand me wanting to leave a bit earlier to drive the hour to the hosp to visit him!

Recently however I've been accused of not doing my job properly on more than one occasion and trust me they have no reason to say that - a monkey could probably do my job!

Then yest I had a 'talk' from my boss - he thinks I go out of my way to be unhelpful (not true), that I'm grumpy (only sometimes!), that I have poor concentration (not true), that I keep making lots of mistakes (he could only name one minor one when I asked), my attendance (this is the only true thing), he then said that if I want to leave to hand my notice in, but he doesn't want me to!

I spoke to a former employee and apparently they've done this before when they want someone to leave.

They aren't very nice people to work for!!

Sorry for the long post!!

Hello Diana Prince,
I can imagine what you are going through. I would suggest you move this post and make a new post under a new tittle. I guess it will catch more eyes. There are so many good people on here who can offer some great advice. I hope you get through well. Be strong and fight for your employment rights

olly300

mosdee wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Something has surprising happened today. I sent my employer an email to confirm my attendance for the grievance appeal hearing which is due next week and I also requested some documents. I accidentally sent the email before it was completed. After a while I sent a completed one. I then received an email which stated that my email was incomplete. They asked me to confirm what I wanted to request.

The second email was sent back (bounced). I sent 3 other emails to the same address but they all bounced. I realised that my emails were blocked. I quickly created another email account which I used to send the original email. Surprisingly it was received.

How childish is that? I thought I was dealing with responsible managers working for a big company, but this has proved otherwise.

The documents I requested for, I needed them for the hearing. I believe they will claim not to have received my email. They won’t be in the office till next Tuesday which will be too late to post me the documents.

What should I do?

Just want to say when an employer acts like yours the best thing to do is send them two copies of any correspondence from now on.

You are acting reasonably by doing so as they obviously have a problem with their email server. :rolleyes:

At the bottom of the letters state the 2 methods you used to send the message to them.

So if you have a fax machine then send the email to them by fax as well and get print out of the verification that you sent the fax to them.

Alternatively use registered post as well as email.

Then put both copies of the letter plus the fax verification/registered post slip in your bundle.

I had an ex-employer who claimed more than once in writing to the tribunal that they had not received any of my correspondence sent by email, mail or fax. I then put a bundle together for my directions hearing consisting of the correspondence they claimed not to have received with the fax slips and registered post slips and 3 copies in on the day.

Needless to say they were surprised as it's not normal to do this.

To put it bluntly tribunal chairman are not surprised by companies doing tricks like this and if you can prove that that it's highly likely that they would have received your correspondence then it helps you.