Employment Tribunal Help

neiljc_2

miss funky monkey

are you not able to get any free legal advice? try CAB although undoubtedly they must be very busy at the moment.

Have a look at your home insurance policy it may be that you do have cover through that.

the reason I ask is that they should advise you on exhausting the grievance procedure before going down the et route.

I am currently supporting an ex colleague who appears to have a clear case for unfair dismissal and I know her legal advice was that she has to go through all parts of the internal grievance procedure before an et.

I can imagine there might be a couple of instances where this wont be possible, company disappeared, physical assault maybe but it is something you need to be clear on at this stage.

mosdee

Thank you jobbingmusician vbmenu_register("postmenu_19449347", true); for responding. I will be waiting for more of your advice.

Thank you neiljc vbmenu_register("postmenu_19519999", true); for your contribution too. Furhter to your advice, I already submitted my claim to ET. My major headache right now is the fact that my former employer has requested for a "STAY" because they want to hold appalea hearings. It has been long enough since I appealed against their decision (about 35 days).

I'm wondering if that is right for them to look into the appeal hearing after I submitted a claim to ET!?

If it right, then I'm requesting for advice on what to do if i go for the appeal hearing? Please note my former employer said I did not have a valid grievance so they did not look through it.

I think my former employer will try to drop their accusations and ask me to go back. If that happens what do should I do or say?

Money savers please advise.

jobbingmusician

OK, now remember I AM NOT A LAWYER! – just a senior manager who has been to tribunal, and won, on both sides!

Firstly mosdee:

The employer should have made it clear if any meeting they called you to was a disciplinary. If you have the correspondence inviting you to a meeting and saying you could take a friend, make sure it is part of your tribunal bundle.

I don’t think it’s acceptable that they would not provide evidence to you, although I can sort of imagine why they might not during the investigation period. Remember, however, that what they are trying to establish at tribunal (and the burden of proof is on them rather than you) is that they behaved as reasonable employers. I can see that it is possible that they could demonstrate a good reason why they could not provide you with this evidence, and that the evidence made it reasonable to sack you. That is worst case scenario thinking. However, even if they had very good reason to sack you they still have to follow a proper procedure. Calling you to a meeting which you don’t know is a disciplinary is not proper procedure. I suggest you focus more on their procedures rather than their use of a mystery shopper or CCTV, although you can and should refer to these things in your statement.

The risk is, if you come across as saying ‘they used a mystery shopper and CCTV and they shouldn’t’ it could come across as ‘I am guilty but they used devious and wrong methods to find this out’. You want to come across as ‘this is a misunderstanding and I understand that they used lots of ways to check up on their staff – some of which might be wrong, but my main point is that I was not given the opportunity to defend myself because they never really explained what they were alleging I had done wrong’.

If you take this stance, the things to stress to the tribunal are
- I raised issues with which I was unhappy before any problems arose with my employment (assuming this is true) – these issues were never addressed.
- I was invited to a meeting and not told I was being invited to a disciplinary hearing
- I was not given minutes of any meeting which I attended
- I was not given warning of the allegations, and asked about transactions which were 7 weeks old without any warning. My answers were not confirmed to me in writing.
- I have never been told what allegations were made against me (is this true?) or why I was sacked (is this true?)

You should DEFINITELY go to the appeal hearing if you are invited. Demonstrate to the tribunal that you have done everything possible to exhaust the company's internal procedures - this is important!

You think they will invite you to go back. Do you want to? If not, ask them for a COMPROMISE AGREEMENT (Google this) and decide how much money you want them to give you as part of this deal. I would suggest between one and three months' salary, depending on how long you had worked there and what your previous employment record was like.

Comments on the above?

Now I am totally confused, because I was going to reply to funkymonkey, but the post seems to have disappeared!

missfunkymonkey

Hi JobbingMusician,

Sorry, I moved my thread to the Redundancy/Redundancy planning forum as I realised I was hijacking Mosdee's thread!

Any advice you can leave for me would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1542849


http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1544139

mosdee

jobbingmusician wrote: »

OK, now remember I AM NOT A LAWYER! – just a senior manager who has been to tribunal, and won, on both sides!

Firstly mosdee:

The employer should have made it clear if any meeting they called you to was a disciplinary. If you have the correspondence inviting you to a meeting and saying you could take a friend, make sure it is part of your tribunal bundle.

I don’t think it’s acceptable that they would not provide evidence to you, although I can sort of imagine why they might not during the investigation period. Remember, however, that what they are trying to establish at tribunal (and the burden of proof is on them rather than you) is that they behaved as reasonable employers. I can see that it is possible that they could demonstrate a good reason why they could not provide you with this evidence, and that the evidence made it reasonable to sack you. That is worst case scenario thinking. However, even if they had very good reason to sack you they still have to follow a proper procedure. Calling you to a meeting which you don’t know is a disciplinary is not proper procedure. I suggest you focus more on their procedures rather than their use of a mystery shopper or CCTV, although you can and should refer to these things in your statement.

The risk is, if you come across as saying ‘they used a mystery shopper and CCTV and they shouldn’t’ it could come across as ‘I am guilty but they used devious and wrong methods to find this out’. You want to come across as ‘this is a misunderstanding and I understand that they used lots of ways to check up on their staff – some of which might be wrong, but my main point is that I was not given the opportunity to defend myself because they never really explained what they were alleging I had done wrong’.

If you take this stance, the things to stress to the tribunal are
- I raised issues with which I was unhappy before any problems arose with my employment (assuming this is true) – these issues were never addressed.
- I was invited to a meeting and not told I was being invited to a disciplinary hearing
- I was not given minutes of any meeting which I attended
- I was not given warning of the allegations, and asked about transactions which were 7 weeks old without any warning. My answers were not confirmed to me in writing.
- I have never been told what allegations were made against me (is this true?) or why I was sacked (is this true?)

You should DEFINITELY go to the appeal hearing if you are invited. Demonstrate to the tribunal that you have done everything possible to exhaust the company's internal procedures - this is important!

You think they will invite you to go back. Do you want to? If not, ask them for a COMPROMISE AGREEMENT (Google this) and decide how much money you want them to give you as part of this deal. I would suggest between one and three months' salary, depending on how long you had worked there and what your previous employment record was like.

Comments on the above?

Now I am totally confused, because I was going to reply to funkymonkey, but the post seems to have disappeared!

Thank you for your advise. Every time you add on to this post, you open my eyes more.

The issues I raised were about my contract before the allegations. I wrote 3 letters but I never had a response. I phoned the manager to request for a response. I had 2 meetings with him but never had a full response. He made promises but later changed his mind. He warned me that if I raised a grievance and got to the second stage then I would lose my job. He said that in the presence of a union rep who had been invited by the manager him self.

Nearly 3 months later, I was given a letter inviting me for a meeting. There were no details of the allegation in that letter. During that meeting I asked about missing transaction. Like I said It was more than 5 weeks back. It was then that I was suspended with pay. I was not provided with a letter to clarify their reasons for my suspension. However I was accused of stealing during that meeting.

On the second interview they gave me a letter of suspension dated the day I had my first interview. I was taken through the same interview process. I was asked to go back for a third interview. During the third interview they gave me a pack of minutes which were not accurate with what they refered to as their evidence and a letter charging me for gross misconduct. I was invited for a displinary hearing. Displinary hearing was going to be the fourth meeting with them.

At the displinary hearing, a decision was not made. They took 15 days to notify me of their decision. That was after I sent emails to the HR. I believe it was a tactic to make those delays so I could fall behind the time limit.

The other tactic I realised was they back dated two of the letters they sent me. They lied about sending me letters which I never received.

I was looking up on the internet for free legal advise today. Surprisingly I found a story about my former employer which is/was similar to my case back in 2004.

They suspended a member of staff on grounds of gross misconduct. They made unrealistic delays. He raised a claim with ET. They then invited him to attend the appeal hearing. They offered to take him back but demoted him. He refused the offer. He went ahead with the tribunal. The employer said that the claimant worn his appeal but refused the offer. ET said there was nothing wrong with what the employer actions. Staff member lost his case.

They use delays as a tactic such that by the time they respond to the appeal request, one will have fallen out of the time limit to submit a claim.

Is it possible to request ET not to consider my former employer's request (STAY)?

My employer said they were to confirm with me about the date for the hearing which they proposed to the ET (before the end of this month) but they have not writen to me as yet.

What do I do? Please offer more advice.

mosdee

Hi jobbingmusician,
I got a letter for the appeal hearing which is due a in few days.
It's clear I can't withdraw the appeal.

If the dismissal is "reversed" what should I do?
Considering what have been put through.

If they (former employer) decide to change my dismissal to a different penalty what should I do?

Can anyone offer some advice please. vbmenu_register("postmenu_19560247", true);

jobbingmusician

They have treated you badly, and are probably aware of this. My guess is that they are offering you an appeal because they are scared of tribunal proceedings. They will not be feeling in a position to try to force you into any decision on the spot. In fact they are most likely to (and should, IMHO) defer any decision and let you know after the hearing, so you will have time to think about what your next move should be. Take someone with you if you can - the most impressive (or impressive looking) person you can wheel out. Refer to having taken legal advice (you have asked people on here about the law ) - and if they do make you any sort of offer, tell them that you need time to consider your decision. The only thing you need to spend any energy considering is if you want to go back and work for them again. If you don't, then you have nothing to worry about as you have nothing to lose. You can continue with the tribunal hearing after the appeal if you think it relevant (I'm not pre-judging what might happen at the appeal - how you might continue with the tribunal would obviously flow on from that). Would you still not want to go back to work if they turned round and said they withdrew all allegations?

If you DO want to go back to work, try to think through what you would be happy to accept (for example, look at a standard disciplinary procedure. Would you be happy with a written warning? with a final warning? with demotion? With an apology?) But I stress that you are in a strong position to buy time and consider what is on the table before you accept or reject it. If they are trying to defend themselves against a possible tribunal, they are really unlikely to prejudice their own case by making a snap decision on the day and trying to get you to make one too.

And if you have time to make a decision, you have time to post as many details as you are comfortable with on here, and use the collective wisdom of this forum

mosdee

jobbingmusician wrote: »

They have treated you badly, and are probably aware of this. My guess is that they are offering you an appeal because they are scared of tribunal proceedings. They will not be feeling in a position to try to force you into any decision on the spot. In fact they are most likely to (and should, IMHO) defer any decision and let you know after the hearing, so you will have time to think about what your next move should be. Take someone with you if you can - the most impressive (or impressive looking) person you can wheel out. Refer to having taken legal advice (you have asked people on here about the law ) - and if they do make you any sort of offer, tell them that you need time to consider your decision. The only thing you need to spend any energy considering is if you want to go back and work for them again. If you don't, then you have nothing to worry about as you have nothing to lose. You can continue with the tribunal hearing after the appeal if you think it relevant (I'm not pre-judging what might happen at the appeal - how you might continue with the tribunal would obviously flow on from that). Would you still not want to go back to work if they turned round and said they withdrew all allegations?

If you DO want to go back to work, try to think through what you would be happy to accept (for example, look at a standard disciplinary procedure. Would you be happy with a written warning? with a final warning? with demotion? With an apology?) But I stress that you are in a strong position to buy time and consider what is on the table before you accept or reject it. If they are trying to defend themselves against a possible tribunal, they are really unlikely to prejudice their own case by making a snap decision on the day and trying to get you to make one too.

And if you have time to make a decision, you have time to post as many details as you are comfortable with on here, and use the collective wisdom of this forum

Thank you every much jobbingmusician time and advice.
I have a feeling they will try to offer me a job back but they will make it hard for me in different ways. I base that on what I have read in previous cases similar to mine with that company. I came across 2 cases on the net whereby staff were dismissed asked to attend appeal hearings. Staff did not consider what they were offered. In the end staff lost their cases.

I’m not so much worried if they uphold their decision to dismiss me. I believe their evidence is unrealistic and weak. I am ready to go ahead with my claim. My main concern is if they try to reduce their penalty, which will mean that I committed an offence.

Is it possible to claim against other penalties (e.g. warning)?

Do you think it will be appropriate to request for a payment and leave the company?

If that is possible, how would I approach it?

Request for a different job within the company?

I also think they will ask me what I would like them to do or what I would like happen or what they should do to make things different? Those types of questions worry me because I think they will be trying to trick me.

I really do not mind going back and work for them, but they will put me under so much scrutiny and watch every step I make till I make a wrong one (mistake)! They will get me out.

I received a notice of CASE MANAGEMENT DISCUSSION today due in April. I don’t what to expect there.

Please throw some more advice on here for me.
Other money savers your advise will be appreciated too.

Horace

The case management discussion is basically where you (or your union rep) meet with the employment tribunal adjudicator and the opposition and your case is discussed and how it will proceed and how both parties divulge information.

mosdee

Horace wrote: »

The case management discussion is basically where you (or your union rep) meet with the employment tribunal adjudicator and the opposition and your case is discussed and how it will proceed and how both parties divulge information.

Thank you for your response.
Any Ideas on how to approach that discussion?
What if things change after the appeal hearing? I mean if my former employer withdraws my dismissal or makes some sort of offer.
Also, some of the information contained in their (former employer) response to my claim was not right. Is that something I could raise during the case discussion.
Please advise on how to prepare for the case discussion.