Digby Jones - Civil service could have half the staff.

Andy_L

lincroft1710 wrote: »

The White Horse - NONE of the jobs mentioned are Civil Service, they are Local Government. There is a big difference between the two and where the money comes from to fund salaries..

Not really, it all comes from the tax payer

Layla_CK

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Layla - why get them working when you can dismiss them. I know of at least 3 people dismissed from CS for inefficiency/poor attendance, 2 in same office within 2 yrs.

If only that happened where I am

Not sure who said it before - but a lot of civil servants wouldn't last five minutes in a private company. I suppose the longer someone is in a job the safer they feel, hence why they think their behaviour is acceptable when in reality it really is not

Dylanwing

Lots of squabbling here, and lots of fantasies. I have worked in both sectors, and there is good and bad in both private and public sectors.
In the Public Sector, there is waste, there are people doing little, but these are exceptions. Most of the waste is generated by high-level efficiency initiatives, and re-organisations, of whichthere are far too many, and all unco-ordinated, normally generated by Ministers who want to earn brownie points. If the Civil service cut all of these for 3 years and actually focussed on what it is meant to be doing, the changes could bed in, services would improve, and the real problem areas would be highlighted.
The next biggest waste is Consultants, they are parasitic leeches and should all be gone within 2 years. They have no special skills other than to quote standard text-book Management BS, and yet senior Directors love them. In one area I worked, Civil Servants did a Business course to become internal consultants and were far better than the external leeches. However, as we all know, civil servants are useless and could not possibly be as good as a 21 year old straight from college! Most Civil Servants do work hard, take pride in the job, the pay is not great, but the perks are good.
The Council non-jobs are, once again, mostly in response to Government knee-jerk policies. I have no personal experience of this sector, but from friends I gather that the other big problem is the 'Chief Executives' who just move between Councils, empire building, gaining advancement, and generally creating chaos with mad schemes that look good on the cv. Running an efficient Council is not good enough for them! As with the CS, promote from within and you get reasonable competence, but little dynamism. Recruit externally and you get dynamism, but often risk and BS.
As for the Private Sector, that varies. If you look at many of the struggling Companies, they borrowed too much, looked at short-term gains rather than long-term growth, pay far too much to incompetents in the Boardroom, and have too much management by text-book. How has off-shoring call-centres benefitted anyone? Less jobs in the UK, and utterly poor service. And then look at Bellway, targets missed, profits down, so just remove the targets and steal a bonus anyway. It's not playing loose with taxpayers money, but shareholders money.
In summary, good and bad in all sectors. In a good economy there is room for both sectors, and getting the balance right is normally the key. The one thing that both sectors need now is stability, and for the chiefs to stop looking for change and continuous growth by using risky and short-term measures - We have tried that and look what happened.

lynzpower

macaque wrote: »

Executive Director for Resourcesm, LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £135K
Deputy Chief Executive (Performance), MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL,£130,000
Head of Economic Development and Sustainability, WORCESTERSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £75,267 - £83,388 per annum
HR Relationship Manager - Adult Social Care, Kingston upon Thames, £60,000
Head of Corporate Information Services, STOCKPORT BOROUGH COUNCIL, £41,083 - £51,668 plus benefits ( basically head of data protection, do you think this job should not exist)
Head of Property & Procurement STOCKPORT BOROUGH COUNCIL, £46,856 - £57,723 plus benefits ( buying in property and land and getting rid, usually for housing/ buying and selling land- do you not tihnk local authorities should do this)
Head of Corporate Information Services STOCKPORT BOROUGH COUNCIL, £41,083 - £51,668 plus benefits
Inclusion Manager Teacher, LEEDS CITY COUNCIL, £39,504 - ££43,607
Assessment and Intervention Team Managers, WEST SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL, £41,600 - £44,500 per annum (this is child protection work, do you not feel this should happen)
Therapies Manager - Children’s Services, EAST SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL, £38,931 - £42,549 ( do you not feel that Children should have therapies offerered to them for example speech therapy or psychological therepy after experiencing abuse?)
Additional Educational Needs Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF HAVERING, £58,905 to £63,996 ( theyve renamed this, bascially this is to manage staff who manage children with SEN- do you not feel they should have these needs met)
Deputy Head of Service, Countywide BEDFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £39,345 - £42,798
Head of Service - Strategic Commissioner for Culture, Health and Wellbeing WIGAN COUNCIL, £56,268 - £61,392
Programme Manager - Personalisation LEICESTERSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £47,772 - £52,719
Children's Services Transport Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF HILLINGDON, £43,013 - £46,702 ( i might apply for this :j)
Deputy Service Manager - Fostering CITY OF WESTMINSTER COUNCIL, £41,721 up to £44,334 ( come off it, do you really think that social workers should be unmanaged?!!)
Professional Head of Social Work and Social Inclusion BRADFORD DISTRICT CARE TRUST, £41,221 - £53,432
Safeguarding Children Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF EALING, £54,054 - £56,880 ( again do you nort think child protection should be managed?)
Head of Early Years & Children's Centres Service CITY OF YORK COUNCIL, £43,850 - £50,200 (
2 Senior Quality Officers - Adults Services LONDON BOROUGH OF NEWHAM, £42,813 - £45,459 ( again do you not think social workers shouls be managed?
Operations Manager (Community Safety) LONDON BOROUGH OF REDBRIDGE, £41,076 - £43,695 ( basically a manger of community wardens, security officers- I suppose these people should be unmanaged)
Biodiversity Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF SUTTON, £38,463 - £41,076 pa
Head of Economic and Urban Policy MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL, £65,000 ( I think personally this is quite low for the size of manchester)
Assistant Director Commissioning and Transformation - Adult Social Services NORFOLK COUNCIL,£79,000
Assistant Chief Executive, Performance and Delivery BARNSLEY METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL, £80k
Director of the Office for Disability Issues DEPARTMENT OF WORK AND PENSIONS, £90K
Manager Services for Children/Young People with a Disability and/or Illness HEREFORDSHIRE COUNCIL,£37,106 - £44,527 ( do you really think this iunneeded)
Assistant Chief Executive, Performance and Delivery BARNSLEY METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL, £80k
Head of Service – Safeguarding and Vulnerable Children HEREFORDSHIRE COUNCIL, £67,599 to £71,299 ( head of child protection! Again is this really not something you tyhe taxpayer wants to pay for ?!!)
Head of Policy & Performance, ROYAL BOROUGH WINDSOR & MAIDENHEAD, £62,885 - £73,170
Head of Admissions & Transport EAST SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL, £49,338 - £53,916
Head of Economic and Urban Policy MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL, £65,000
Neighbourhood Manager COMMUNITY AT HEART, £38,462 – 41,897 per annum
Joint Commissioners: Mental Health & Learning Disabilities LONDON BOROUGH OF BARNET,£48,252 - £51,078 ( commissioning officers, are those who report manage the myriad of contractors that we have been told all LAs have to do, so you cant just leave contractors to it, they need to be managed- I would prefer not to see this but thats the life of contracting into govenrment)
Joint Commissioners: Older People & Physical Sensory Impairment LONDON BOROUGH OF BARNET,£48,252 - £51,078
Lead Officer for Carers - Strategy & Commissioning LONDON BOROUGH OF BARNET, £48,024 - £51,381
Assistant Director - Planning, Performance and Engagement EAST SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL, £68,310
Children’s Workforce Development – Project Officer LEICESTERSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £36,675 - £40,518
London 2012 Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF BRENT, £46,359
Director of Economic Development LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL, £98k
Training and Development Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF LAMBETH, £39,987
Officer in Charge LONDON BOROUGH OF NEWHAM, £38,463 pa - £41,076 pa (pro-rata)
Head of Adult Disability and Sensory Services LONDON BOROUGH OF NEWHAM, £47,200 - £57,700 ( again do you really think that whole divisions looking after the most vulerable in society should not be managed!?!)
Extended Schools Manager LONDON BOROUGH OF SOUTHWARK, £39,114 - £45,21
Service Manager - Quality, Contracts and Safeguarding, KENSINGTON AND CHELSEA, £70,500 incl. avg
Operations Manager - Children's Placement Service LONDON BOROUGH OF EALING, £54,054 - £56,880 pa inclusive ( again do you think childrens placements ( ie fostering & adoption ) should not be managed)
Head of Transformation and Modernisation - Adult Social Care LONDON BOROUGH OF HOUNSLOW, £73,805 to £85,459
Care & Repair and Grants Team Leader LONDON BOROUGH OF HOUNSLOW, £40,194 - £42,813
Health and Safety Manager SURREY COUNTY COUNCIL, £40,002 - £44,757 ( do you believe there is no role for health & safety in our local authorities?)
Strategic Project Manager for Croydon’s Children’s Trust LONDON BOROUGH OF CROYDON, £39,302 - £41,097
Head of Transformation and Modernisation LONDON BOROUGH OF HOUNSLOW, £73,805 to £85,459
Corporate Director of Development and Neighbourhood Services, STOCKTON ON TEES, £128,523
Strategic Director of Neighbourhood Services, MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL, £120,000
Director of Strategic Client Relations,£120k
Executive Director, ROCHDALE METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL, £120,000
Executive Director - Finance and Support Services, SOUTH CAMBRIDGESHIRE DISTRICT COUNCIL, Salary £100000

Im not too sure about many of these jobs so wouldnt like to comment, but have offered my own perspective on how "useless" these jobs are :rolleyes:

Generali

lynzpower wrote: »

Im not too sure about many of these jobs so wouldnt like to comment, but have offered my own perspective on how "useless" these jobs are :rolleyes:

Some of the wages on offer are pretty punchy though. Some of those wages are 100k+. It'd be interesting to know by what yardstick their performance is measured.

movingforward2010

im a civil servant in the jobcentre working 37hrs a week for £14700, and i work my butt off! as do my colleagues, the ones that need to be sacked are the useless managers on £70k+

dzug1

Generali wrote: »

Some of the wages on offer are pretty punchy though. Some of those wages are 100k+. It'd be interesting to know by what yardstick their performance is measured.

Given the number of posts, it's pretty obvious they are having trouble filling them. Maybe they aren't as overpaid as it appears.

I suspect a lot of them will be judged by keeping in budget (highly measurable) and only secondarily by the quality of service their organisation delivers (a bit vague).

dzug1

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I have a friend who is a CS with 17 years service - she is an Executive Officer on temporary promotion, her pension is about £3,800 - slightly less I think. She was 60 in September and can't afford to retire, So is carrying on working.

Yes it is a fairly low grade - most jobs are - and her pension was (is) based on 40/80th's not 40/60th's - so it would be a lot less than mine in a final salary private scheme if I had earned the same salary as her.

The difference is that with 40/80ths you get a lump sum as well - with 40/60ths you don't. Unless you give up pension to do it. The two are roughly equivalent - it's just a question of presentation

dzug1

Andy_L wrote: »

Only if the travel distance is further than it was before, usually 25p/mile extra.

and I think only for 2 years after the move

globalds

From the interview I saw on the News this morning ,Digby was using the over staffing in the context of a 19th century institution working in the 21st century.
I don't think he was criticising the people as much as he was commenting on how out of date it was and maybe if it was made fit for purpose it could in fact be run with far less people.
My own take on it is that it would be the civil service who would be involved in any reinvention ...That would pretty well doom the exercise to failure and probably just end up with even more people being hired..