DMP Mutual Support Thread (Part 5)

Toffee_Penny

sunshine38 wrote: »

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

TP, when you say they didnt provide a decent enough agreement, do you mean it was an unsigned copy?

I'm sure there is something around here which says that an original creditor is not "allowed" to pass on an account when it is in "dispute". I just need to try and find it.

Is this for a credit card agreement? I've found the link about the OFT guidelines but I need to go back and check that this does cover credit cards and not just catalogue type agreements that come under the CCA. Be back soon.

Sx

Cocker said on here about the CCA thread and I have been reading through that. The reason I asked Halifax for CCA was because they started to charge reduced interest on the account and the DMP payment might aswell have gone in the bin for all we felt it was doing.

Halifax reply was a signed apllication to upgrade the account and print outs of agreements but nothing was signed, they just had OH details across the top so I think they have just printed them off for us so we have a copy of the rules.

We have considered many times whether to go it alone and leave CCCS as we asked them before about taking the creditors off who don't stop interest but they said no. it had to be all of them or nothing. We just wanted creditors to be reasonable and if I am honest I still don't understand all the ins and outs of it all :rolleyes:

I will be writing Halifax a letter of complaint, I want them to know that we know a little about what our rights are. If we have to deal with Moorcroft then fine but Halifax should confirm that shouldn't they? This is what I still find confusing I didn't want to deal with Moorcroft cause I just didn't like their attitude but I suppose it will come to that soon but there'll be no bloody biscuits! :rotfl:

Toffee_Penny

bigmommamuppet wrote: »

God there's allsorts in my cutlery drawer that I could use as a DCA removal tool and none of it involves cutlery. I'm sure we have a cutlery thief in this house who replaces stolen items with things like pens, mystery keys, beer bottle tops and the weirdest thing I found the other night was DS socks (clean I may add-well I hope they were) :rotfl: :rotfl:

So if anyone ever comes knocking at my door they may get some clean? socks thrown at them.

Oh but its just the shame of some DCA knocking on your door and you can guarantee your neighbour will be hovering around outside ear wigging. :eek:

sunshine38_2

Hey TP

Did your original CCA letter to Halifax look something like one of mine:

[Consumer Credit Act Request

Dear Sirs

Your Ref: ABC/DEF
Account No: 12345678
Balance: £1,000,000 (! I am kidding!)

I am writing to inform you that this account is now in legal dispute.


I am requesting that you supply me with the following documentation :


1. You must supply me with a true and signed copy of the alleged agreement. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for rolling sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee.

2. If this debt has been sold to you, you must supply me with a signed true copy of the original executed agreement of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

4. Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

5. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA.

Furthermore, I would like to add that at no time did I consent to the processing by you of my data, in any matter which would be unfair or inaccurate, or which in any way would breach The Data Protection Act 1998. If this alleged debt has been legally assigned to you, then any personal data relevant to the credit agreement allegedly entered into may only have been passed to you provided that my/the borrower’s authority was obtained in the original agreement.

However, you have certainly not requested and I have not given any permission for my personal data to be passed, and/or shared, and/or received by you.

The law set in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 must abided by everyone – people and companies alike. One would hope that you already had in your possession true and accurate information such as a true copy of the original signed credit agreement prior to issuing a claim

For your information, I will not be making any more payments to yourselves or any third party until this matter is resolved.

As this account is now in dispute you must freeze all actions on this account. This means that :
· You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any to you.
· You may not add further charges to the account.
· You may not add any further interest to the account. You are not permitted to profit from an account in dispute.
· You may not register any information with the Credit Reference Agencies.
· You may not pass the account on to any third party.
· You may not take any further action on this account until my dispute is resolved.

I would also like to make you aware of the Office of Fair Trading Code of Guidelines in which it states:-

"Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive".

This includes:

"Ignoring disputes about whether money is owed and refusing to freeze action if the debt is in dispute".

In conclusion, as you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the C.C.A., and therefore a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

You have 12 days to comply with my requests.

I therefore hope to receive your full co-operation in this matter, and would like to request a written response to that effect.

Yours sincerely,

Mrs Sunshine

Enc: Cheque - £1.00]

Note Items in GREEN and RED

I was going to suggest you forwarding a copy of your original CCA letter to Moorcrofts - for their information

You could also send a further letter to Halifax reminding them that the account is in fact in legal dispute as they have not produced a true and signed copy of the alleged original agreement. Threaten them that should they persist in pursuing an account which currently stands in legal dispute then YOU will seek COSTS against THEM when the issue of costs arises at Court and that you reserve the right to produce "this correspondence" (i.e the letter that you are/will be writing to them now) to the Court.

Still having problems trying to get the OFT Guidelines up - having trouble with PDF/Adobe so my 'puter is not properly better just yet :rolleyes:

Sx

Toffee_Penny

I sent this.....

Halifax
Customer Relations

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account number: 123456

With reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement, statement of account and notice of assignment.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a true copy of my credit agreement on request. I enclose a postal order (number xxxxx) for £1 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

sunshine38_2

Toffee_Penny wrote: »

Oh but its just the shame of some DCA knocking on your door and you can guarantee your neighbour will be hovering around outside ear wigging. :eek:

I know, I know, all joking aside, it is a worry - I worry about it myself. What I try to remember is that if anyone does happen to call (although it is extremely unlikely in the majority of cases and it is all just "scare tactics") is that they have as much right to "entry" as the paper boy would ... NONE! You have to remember that you are actually attempting to deal with your debts/creditors and if by chance you do open the door to a "representative" (god, what a job they must have!) that you can just say you are in negotiation with XXX and they should refer back to XXX. Close the door and then eat chocolate (I cant say have a ciggie because you're doing FABULOUS DHARLING! ) If the chocolate doesnt work ... have some wine

I've just seen your other post re cocker etc. Is there anything in your original CCA letter that you can throw back at them/copy Moorcroft into? The account is still technically in dispute, isnt it. Ok, so it was a signed APPLICATION form for the account to be upgraded but it wasnt a signed AGREEMENT to it would that work do you think? HSBC gave hubby an overdraft but he never signed an agreement to it ... they just did that to take their loan money out cos his wages werent going into it anymore!

Sx

Toffee_Penny

You see now this is where I put my hands up and admit I'm fick!

I don't get this bit..... bear with me please? :rolleyes:


Ok so sending a CCA letter like we have done (yours is better than mine ) justs asks for legal agreements that are enforceable in a court for a ccj.

However how can we dispute the debt IF we are on a DMP? This is where I get confused because the template letters all then start to say 'I don't have to make payments anymore' one evn asks for money back :rolleyes: yeah right Halifax gives you extra, not like that

So I don't know I asked for the agreement to stop the interest, Halifax have said they would now so plus we getting ppi refund which will put the account below the limit so .....

does that make sense?

sunshine38_2

Okay, back again, I've tweaked my letter to put something together that you might be able to use ... might be worth a try



"I write further to my letter of XXX and refer to the correspondence received from Moorcrofts dated XXX (ref: XXX).

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA.

Furthermore, I would like to add that at no time did I consent to the processing by you of my data, in any matter which would be unfair or inaccurate, or which in any way would breach The Data Protection Act 1998. If this alleged debt has been legally assigned to MOORCROFT , then any personal data relevant to the credit agreement allegedly entered into may only have been passed to MOORCROFT provided that my/the borrower’s authority was obtained in the original agreement.

However, you have certainly not requested and I have not given any permission for my personal data to be passed or shared by you.

The law set in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 must abided by everyone – people and companies alike. One would hope that you already had in your possession true and accurate information such as a true copy of the original signed credit agreement prior to issuing any claim

For your information, I will not be making any more payments to yourselves or any third party until this matter is resolved.

As this account is now in dispute you must freeze all actions on this account. This means that :
· You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any to you.
· You may not add further charges to the account.
· You may not add any further interest to the account. You are not permitted to profit from an account in dispute.
· You may not register any information with the Credit Reference Agencies.
· You may not pass the account on to any third party.
· You may not take any further action on this account until my dispute is resolved.
I would also like to make you aware of the Office of Fair Trading Code of Guidelines in which it states:-

"Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive".

This includes:

"Ignoring disputes about whether money is owed and refusing to freeze action if the debt is in dispute".

In conclusion, as you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the C.C.A., and therefore a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

I therefore hope to receive your full co-operation in this matter, and would like to request a written response to that effect.

Yours sincerely,

Mrs "Bring it On" Toffee Penny!

c.c. Moorcrofts - ref XXX"

How does that sound? At the end of the day, you are still attempting to get something sorted. I've never stopped paying to the two accounts that I CCA'd because CCCS wont stop the payments anyway. But I would leave that in, just for good measure!!!

Sx

Toffee_Penny

Oh that's fantastic Sunshine, well done :T :T :T

I'll definitely be writing to Moorcroft just because they have annoyed me with their letters, it will be worth the quid just to show them we can't be bullied. Mind you they are probably that thick skinned they will probably use the £1 postal order as payment :mad:

sunshine38_2

Toffee_Penny wrote: »

However how can we dispute the debt IF we are on a DMP? This is where I get confused because the template letters all then start to say 'I don't have to make payments anymore' one evn asks for money back :rolleyes: yeah right Halifax gives you extra, not like that

So I don't know I asked for the agreement to stop the interest, Halifax have said they would now so plus we getting ppi refund which will put the account below the limit so .....

does that make sense?

Right, I'm with you - totally understand where you are coming from with this - because I'm equally confused :rotfl:

I've used the CCA route on two occasions - both because they were insistent on threatening court proceedings/had been passed to "solicitors" to deal with. I panicked. Obviously, the last thing I want to do, is go to Court. SO, I sent the letters on the basis that if they cant produce a true copy of the original signed agreement, then their claim would not hold up in any Court.

I didnt think to use it as a means to getting a creditor to freeze interest on an account.

The wording that I came across does incorporate the freezing of interest and the "right to stop paying" - which I cant quite get my head around either.

I think that, for some people, they would genuinely stop paying if an original agreement cant be produced and for those same "few", they would see that as a means to say that they are no longer indebted to that creditor.

For me, I left the wording in "just in case" although my intention has never been to stop paying them anything altogether - I just wanted them to accept that they do not actually have the documentation they required to pursue any type of Court action and so for the benefit of all of us, please just accept the payment proposals being offered because, for now, that is all I am able to offer. Dont annoy me and I wont annoy you kind of thing! Does that make sense?

Given that Halifax are refuding the PPI and have agreed to stop the interest - that's a really good result. Ok, the down side is that they have passed to Moorcrofts without your consent and Moorcrofts have sent this letter out to you. I would now be tempted (now that I know a bit more about what's happened) to just email CCCS with an update of the information of Moorcrofts details/ref/address and ask CCCS to contact Moorcrofts and send them details of the plan to accept.

Halifax may have had to pass to Moorcrofts in order to be able to justify stopping the interest. We just need to get Moorcrofts to play nice now. If you get any more "threatening" letters from them, just tweak the wording of the suggested letter so that you are telling them "by way of a reminder of the consumer credit act" and you will be reminding them that, actually, there is NO SIGNED AGREEMENT ... so play nice

Does that help hun?

Sx

Toffee_Penny

Yep we on the same level Sunny! :beer:

The debt is still with Halifax cause they are giving the refunded ppi back to the account, if the debt was with Moorcroft they would have to refund by cheque. However I suppose I could write to Halifax for clarification on who exactly owns the bloody debt! I'll still write to Moorcroft using the CCA letter to see what they got.

Anyway surely its time that bloke from the adverts did some work in the office sorting out really important things like this rather than singing and dancing on beaches all day :rotfl: