New Kaupthing CHAPS/BACS Transfers discussion - Friday 24th October

ladyhepburn

bigg wrote: »

The banking system is in the middle of a major revamp, just to complicate our woes. I lifted this from the Halifax website. Some banks do and some banks don’t:

Faster Payments

We have introduced a new Faster Payments Service for all bank account customers.

We now send most standing orders and bill payments from your Halifax and Bank of Scotland bank accounts through the Faster Payments Service. As a result, payments may arrive in the receiving account on the same day they left your account. You don't need to do anything to send your standing orders or bill payments faster; we do this automatically.

Where the receiving bank does not offer this service, the payment could still take up to three bank working days to arrive.

You are now able to make Immediate Faster Payments from your Halifax and Bank of Scotland bank accounts. Payments sent to accounts held with other banks (that also provide this service) should arrive within two hours, and many will arrive in just seconds. Where the receiving bank does not offer this service, the payment could still take up to three bank working days to arrive.

Immediate Faster Payments will show on your statement as 'Faster Payment' plus the name of the recipient.

You are able to make an Immediate Faster Payment 24 hours a day, 7 days a week simply by selecting today's date as the payment date.

There is no fee for this service.

I don't know if 'revamp' is quite the right word - same day payments have been possible for quite some time, the banks have just decided to keep things moving slowly.... Hence some people have 'magically' had their money from KE within minutes/hours of a particular complaint.

(Another 'problem' is that many still charge unnecessarily for making a payment to a foreign account, as this doesn't happen in other European countries - but that's a bit off-topic.... )

As for payments coming through on the weekend - I would presume money couldn't be transferred on a Sunday, but if banks are open on a Saturday, then there's no reason why they would be unable to do anything. It's just at their discretion - again.....

ladyhepburn

dag wrote: »

I hope this doesn't sound like gloating, but if it's true that the only people who are still waiting for their money are those who tried to make withdrawals in that short time-frame when it all went off in the press, then I sincerely hope this encourages people to think rationally before they participate in a run on a bank in the future. In this particular case, it looks like it's the people who have taken part in that run who have got stung. The people who held back have now mostly been sorted.

I, like many others, withdrew money *after* KE was taken over by ING. I'm not the most financially-experienced person in the world, but even I know that if one bank has problems, that doesn't automatically mean the others will come toppling down too - Iceland's economy was being propped up for a long time before all this happened, and like many others, I knowingly took advantage of a high interest rate in a somewhat risky climate.

Unfortunately, personal circumstances meant that I needed to withdraw my money - the timing was coincidental. A 'sheep' mentality may exist, but that doesn't mean we all adhere to it!

And one of the main reasons for all the frustration that people are feeling, is that fact that we should have had our money returned to us long ago....

Vectra

Well those who have not received their money be patient it will arrive I am sure,I received mine the 20/10 from a chaps request made am 6/10 so I know what this terrible waiting game involves.I have still got mine it is proving difficult to place money with others I opened acct with all/leicester after verifying my docs that the last I have heard from Them.I opened acct with B/Bingley and have tried to place money by bacs nothing yet after a week.YB/Society have a 14mth fixed acct interest paid monthly into linked acct.I was advised to send cheque as best means,today after nothings happened I rang up .They have my cheque but have done nothing with it as I was told they are currently working through a backlog at least a week long.Looks like the old WAITING game again so be patient everybody its either waiting for your cash in, then waiting for your cash out If it wasn't for my missus I would blow the lot new car etc whatever I would get shut of most just keeping some in my shed for a rainy day to hell with it.Best of luck anyway to those still waiting should soon all be concluded --Then I /We have got ICESAVE to contend with never mind we are certainly becoming a UNIQUE set of people.

dag_2

Unfortunately, personal circumstances meant that I needed to withdraw my money - the timing was coincidental. A 'sheep' mentality may exist, but that doesn't mean we all adhere to it!

You're totally right there; I needed a small amount of my savings too, although certainly not all of it.

Perhaps it's unfair of me to blame people for taking part in a run. If I'm totally honest, the reason why I didn't pull my money out at the same time was not because I was confident that the bank would continue to exist; on the contrary, it was because my lack of faith in the transactional processing system was even greater than my lack of faith in the bank itself!

You see, I have studied double-entry bookkeeping, so I know that at least two operations are necessary for every accounting transaction to take place. I have also studied the object-oriented programming techniques that are used in the creation of database management systems, as well as having personal experience of computers going slow or crashing when they are trying to execute lots and lots of threads at the same time. Putting these things together has given me an awareness that the more transactions there are on any given account in any given set of books or database, then the more likely it is that at least one of those transactions will screw up, and corrupt the account records.

And if something is going to screw up like this, then, chances are, it's going to happen at a point where there's a transfer of responsibility from one party to another; for example, when a new staff member is being taken on, or when the books are moving from a bank that's going bust to the FSCS.

For that reason, getting into a run on an internet-only bank, a telephone-only bank or a post-only bank strikes me as rather foolish. It's not the same as queueing up in a branch of a bank in the hope of taking out cash over the counter; after all, if a branch runs out of cash, you simply don't record your request for a withdrawal at all. But if you do manage to get to the counter before the cash runs out, then you really don't care whether they properly record the withdrawal or not, as long as you get your cash. The cashier is hardly going to record the withdrawal yet refuse to give you the cash to your face, are they? Imagine the scene that it would create!

But with internet-only banks, you don't get the benefit of being able to look the cashier in the eye. With internet-only banks, you are totally dependent on the integrity of the transaction-processing system. And if you think that the bank itself is about to collapse, then the idea that the transaction-processing system will maintain its integrity, in the face of that imminent collapse, so that you can take your money out, strikes me as rather ridiculous.

And more to the point, a branch-based bank is able to physically limit a run in a way that an internet-only or telephone-only bank cannot do, simply due to the fact that the number of transactions that are recorded and processed is limited to the number of people who actually get to the front of the queue before the bank closes its doors. This very practical means of limiting the effects of runs also does not apply to telephone and internet only banks.

I might have had more confidence in transaction-processing systems if it weren't for the fact that they're so slow. BACS normally takes three days, and even CHAPS, which is supposed to be same-day, can still take an hour or two, quite apart from the fact that it costs twenty quid a pop. In other words, it's not possible to test the water with a small amount, then immediately check to see whether or not it's gone through okay, and then take out a larger amount.

That's not a problem with cash over the counter in a branch. You can start off small and pull out progressively larger amounts of cash over the counter in a branch, if you really wanted to; not that you should need to, though, when you're able to look the cashier in the eye. But you can't do it if you're relying on BACS and/or CHAPS to get your money. Basically, you've just got to pull out a big amount and hope for the best. And that was a risk which I personally was not prepared to take. Especially given that we had the "guarantees" from the FSCS and Gordon Brown.

I'm not saying that my faith in the FSCS guarantees were particularly high; however, they certainly weren't any lower than my faith in the transaction processing system of a failing bank.

Still, that's my view. My point is, the fact that there was a virtual "run" on the the bank, proves that there are many people out there who have a lot more confidence in the transaction processing systems of a failing bank than I personally did. If I could reassure myself that the transactions were going to be okay, then I would have pulled out all my money too. But I couldn't, so I didn't. But it would be wrong for me to moralise about those who tried.

I do hope everyone who is still waiting gets their money back soon.

ladyhepburn

dag,

Thanks for your input/explanations. I'm making a little more sense of this mess every day through this forum!

Personally, I wouldn't mind going back to the days before computers. Of course, mistakes were made then too, but from what I'm aware, humans couldn't mess things up as badly when they didn't have machines to help them! (Personally, I use a Linux O/S, so I have a tendancy to forget how easily other things crash... :rolleyes:)

The transfer systems that are in place now aren't even used to their full potential (see my post at the end of the previous page), but that's because the banks can and will use them to their own advantage, and isn't surprising in a Capitalist system. ( I think we need to find a new '-ism' - neither Capitalism nor Communism seems to work particularly well these days. :rolleyes:) And with technological 'advances', it'll probably get to the point where the best financial products will all be internet-based, whether we want them to be or not.

I only hope that something good can come out of this mess. The banks take big risks only to be bailed out by Joe Public, and the man in charge (Brown), who contributed to Northern Rock's downfall, inappropriately uses anti-terrorism laws against otherwise-nice countries to get peoples' money back. (Iceland came up with Sportacus, so they're alright in my book! )

Personally, I think Martin should be put in charge. Martin for PM, anyone? :T

jb123456

theFury wrote: »

Name
10_66
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2little2late
Agonyaunt
Apoorwoman
andy1465
asavoury1969
bmwalker340
bosty
brocherbill
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Carlostk
Corewire
DashBoy
d10
debbiehelen
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drob4
Dutchcowpat
EalingSaver
Eddie123
firstyferret
Fiha05
frantic1
Greecian
Gpotts47
Haider
ianandy
iblamethebanks
isobella2000
Jake’sGran
Jbanks
Jb123456
JCB_Digger
JeremyDrew
JPM
jdcs
Jenbee
kaykay14
Kdm
keithh
kja509
leosayer
macatak
made2fade
Madre Maquina
Mahmoodt
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menbed
metoooo
mjmal51
mrarnald
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okeh
PanicButton
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Peter200
PeteJoseph
Phild
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Puffthemagicdragon
Robin101a
Replay
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Rogcay
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Schoey99
Sjv
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Smitty
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SorryInvestor
Soulsaver
Stoat
Stonehands
Tai-Chi Fan
tangocharlie
TheCaretaker
theEdge
theFury
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tkh3
tooltime82
Unhappygad
Wantage_boy
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Woodyemm
Wra643
WiseBuzyBee
zaphod beeblebrox


Updated list of people awaiting transfers 2030 Oct 29th


94 names


Anyone viewing this thread who is not in receipt of their transfer, please check your name is on the list .
As I will be at work during the day it will be difficult for me to keep a close eye on who is new and needs adding or who is getting paid – I will try my best. However it would be best if people can, please PERSONAL MESSAGE me if you need adding or removing – do NOT edit the list yourself.

---

I have had 45 people contact me out of the 94 awaiting transfers.

The Total for the 45 is £ 1,208,263




60 out of the 94 waiting requested transfers on the 7th/ 8th October



If anyone else wants to PM me their amount and date I will add them to the list!

2 people paid today!

I got paid 31.10.08 but no interest as promised
jb123456

jb123456

Where is Martin and why hasn't he taken up the mantle for those left. I bet a lot of you like myself only invested in this shower as a result of what was on his website singing their praises he was then. Now its a different tune.
MARTIN WHERE ARE YOU:eek:

mrarnald

dag wrote: »

You're totally right there; I needed a small amount of my savings too, although certainly not all of it.

Perhaps it's unfair of me to blame people for taking part in a run. If I'm totally honest, the reason why I didn't pull my money out at the same time was not because I was confident that the bank would continue to exist; on the contrary, it was because my lack of faith in the transactional processing system was even greater than my lack of faith in the bank itself!

---

With respect! i do not think this is the time or place to be discussing this. I do agree with you, with hinesight, i wish I had left my money in the bank, however I did not, I withdrew it like many others and we are where we are.

Can we just concentrate on getting everyone on this forum re-united with their savings?

At the end of this we will have all learned a lesson.

mrarnald

I have just received an interest credit to my KE account of £30
The Interest for this month should have been around £130!
therefore i can only deduce that my money has not been in KE for at least two weeks.. Where is it then? I am on the phone to-day to KE to ask them.

jb123456

I have not received my interest yet, it should have been £130 the Ing liars stated it would be paid in full. So where is it? I suppose I'm lucky I got my money yesterday and shouldn't moan. But why do Ing state things and then don't follow through with what's promised.
Not very good is it lie ING