Kaupthing Edge CHAPS Transfer

bigg

poodlediva wrote: »

bigg - I thought of doing the same. I'd love to cause a run on ING and cause them some real grief. However, if this story runs and a run on the bank occurs, how much longer will it be til we see our money. I think we will soon have no choice to take this story to all the press, but let's give it til Monday just in case?

I thought we already gave them till last Friday?

The email already went to the BBC news desk last night.

I don’t think a pile of complaints will cause a run on the bank; it’s lack of confidence in their assets that cause the runs (you don’t know how true that has been for me this week).

Our money was guaranteed by the FSCS originally and, as I understand it, the FSCS have provided the funds to reimburse us, ING were brought in to organize the distribution of the FSCS money, in return for a 160,000 long mailing list.

I will abide by the majority decision of this forum regarding if/ when/ content of the email.

I welcome any constructive criticism from all posters, except the troll.

Believe me, I have been involved in one or two campaigns before and one thing these large organisations do not like is bad publicity.

Landyman64

Surely somebody with an ex KE account will have needed to withdraw money more recently than where we are all coming from.

Has anybody had a successful CHAPS transfer at any time in the last week? (i.e. Post ING takeover). If so, on what date, and was it actioned on the same day as it should have been?

moneychump

EliTom wrote: »

Not necessarily - as I said earlier the nice folk at ING could have been working all night to get the CHAPS transfers out but if nobody at your bank is there to do whatever they need to do then it will not have been completed and not show in your nominated account.

So if nothing has happened by Monday midday then call your bank and get them to check for CHAPS transaction. If nothing then its time to get onto ING as you will be one of the so called few

ELITom

I really don't think there is anything for the receiving bank to do (after all, what does the "Automated" in CHAPS refer to ? - as many have quoted on this thread).

The only manual part of the transaction is at the source, in our case, now it's ING.
I accept that a "small number" are outstanding, but an honest answer like "they're sitting in an in-tray on an operators desk" would be rather less condescending than "it'll be in your account on Monday".
AFAIK: If anybody has 24 hour telephone banking, their bank will be able to tell them if a CHAPS payment were made to their account today.

And to be honest, why should we have sympathy for the staff?
They're being paid overtime, as our friend on the "inside" mentioned. I am curious though, what it is they would be doing after 4pm?;) (see CHAPS extract...)

This is an extract I found from a document on payment systems (http://www.bis.org/cpss/paysys/UnitedKingdomComp.pdf refer to section 3.2.4)
...

3.2.4 Operation of the system and settlement procedures
Both CHAPS systems currently open at 6 am. The standard closing times for CHAPS Sterling and

CHAPS Euro are 4.20 pm and 5 pm respectively, 4 although for both systems the deadline for submitting customer payments is 4 pm. Most settlement members will, however, negotiate cutoff points with their customers, so that any payment requests received after a set deadline will be handled on a “best efforts” basis. From 4.20 pm until 5 pm, the CHAPS Sterling settlement banks are able to use the Enquiry Link facility to make (interbank) transfers under the Late Transfer Scheme

.5 Each CHAPS payment is settled at the Bank of England before details are sent to the receiving bank.

When a payment message is submitted to the SWIFT network, it is held in the FIN Copy service while a settlement request (a subset of the information contained in the main message) is sent to the Bank of England. Only if the sending bank has sufficient funds on its account does the Bank of England settle the transaction by debiting the account and crediting the receiving bank. The Bank then returns a confirmation message to the FIN Copy service. As soon as this confirmation is received, the main message containing the full payment details is released automatically to the receiving bank, which has the assurance that it has received final and irrevocable funds on its account at the Bank of England.

....

ontherun_2

dag wrote: »

So - what could go wrong?

Well - for one thing, the figure might not be totally accurate. For example, if you had asked Kaupthing Edge to do a CHAPS transaction at some point after they were frozen but before ING Direct took it over, then Kaupthing Edge may have deducted that amount from their record of your balance - expecting it to go through, and not expecting the whole savings account roll to be taken over by ING. So the figure which was passed from Kaupthing Edge via UK Government to ING may have been the lower figure - that is, after your CHAPS withdrawal request has already been deducted.

Therefore, as far as ING are concerned, this transaction dates from before the takeover, and therefore isn't their problem; it's not part of what the UK government told ING their new liabilities would be. But the snag is, the transaction didn't go through, because of the freeze on KSF assets, which would mean that the transaction would have bounced back, and is probably now in the hands of the KSF administrators.

Add to this the fact that there were a whole load of new transaction requests for ING to deal with, which they naturally fell behind on because of the need to set up a system to actually deal with them.

So, my guess is that ING will try to clear the backlog of transactions that were raised or scheduled for after their takeover, simply because these transactions are more straightforward. But in order to sort out the transactions that were put through by KSF in the window of the freeze just before the ING takeover, they will have to find them, which means that they will need to reconcile their up-to-date balance roll with the historical data held by the administrators of KSF.

Still - I don't know. I'm totally guessing. Point is, I can understand there being discrepancies in the initial account balance data that ING received, and I wouldn't be surprised if these had been caused by KSF reporting that transactions had gone through when in fact they hadn't, because they didn't realise they were frozen.

Interesting theory Dag. However, there has been quite a few transactions prior to the takeover now complete & cleared. The issue of the moment seems to be where CHAPS transfer requests were made. Irrespective of when they was made i,e, just prior or just after th 8th October

My understanding is that, the majority of BACS transfers are now with the nominated link account

northernstar5

An earlier post quoted from a report (on bbc??) which stated that 90% of all transfers had been completed and 10% were still left to do manually.
A much earlier post - a few days ago? - had the figure of 26000 - or was it 36000? - as the number of transfers that needed completing altogether- can't remember where that info came from.

Anyway - if both bits of info are correct (!!!) - that means 2600 -or 3600 - transfers still need to be completed manually - which could easily include the chaps transfers we are waiting for.

What do you reckon?

bigg

dag wrote: »

Going back a bit ... miserable ol so an so said:
Hmm, I don't have any more of a clue than the next guy, but unless I'm greatly mistaken, "Kaupthing Edge" is simply a brand name. It makes no sense to consider it to be a separate entity to "Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander".

That's not to say there aren't lots of different distributed departments, though, but I don't think it's case of having to ensure that cash that couriers have shuffled around from location to location is all properly accounted for before issuing transactions.

No, I'm guessing that what must have happened is that when ING Direct took on the KE accounts, the UK Government must have given them an approximate figure of the liability that this would involve, not least so that ING Direct could ask for reasonable compensation from the UK Government out of the assets they had seized from Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander.

And where would the UK Government have got that figure from? Yep - they would have got it from the totals of the balances of all the Kaupthing Edge accounts added together at the time.

So - what could go wrong?

Well - for one thing, the figure might not be totally accurate. For example, if you had asked Kaupthing Edge to do a CHAPS transaction at some point after they were frozen but before ING Direct took it over, then Kaupthing Edge may have deducted that amount from their record of your balance - expecting it to go through, and not expecting the whole savings account roll to be taken over by ING. So the figure which was passed from Kaupthing Edge via UK Government to ING may have been the lower figure - that is, after your CHAPS withdrawal request has already been deducted.

Therefore, as far as ING are concerned, this transaction dates from before the takeover, and therefore shouldn't be their problem; it should have already happened, and, more importantly, it's not part of what the UK government told ING their new liabilities would be. But the snag is, the transaction didn't go through, because of the freeze on KSF assets, which would mean that the transaction would have bounced back, and the money is probably now in the hands of the KSF administrators.

Add to this the fact that there were a whole load of new transaction requests for ING to deal with, which they naturally fell behind on because of the need to set up a system to actually deal with them.

So, my guess is that ING will try to clear the backlog of transactions that were raised or scheduled for after their takeover, simply because these transactions are more straightforward; they can process these without getting the KSF administrators involved in checking them. But in order to sort out the transactions that were put through by KSF in the window of the freeze just before the ING takeover, they will have to find them, which means that they will need to reconcile their up-to-date balance roll with the historical data held by the administrators of KSF.

Still - I don't know. I'm totally guessing. Point is, I can understand there being discrepancies in the initial account balance data that ING received, and I wouldn't be surprised if these had been caused by KSF reporting that transactions had gone through when in fact they hadn't, because they didn't realise they were frozen.

Wot?
That’s an awful lot of data for my poor little brain to compute.

If I understand it correctly:

All our outstanding CHAPS transfers are from the 8th (the day KE went bust)

ING assumed, because they were CHAPS, they had completed successfully, didn’t include them in the total requested from the FSCS and still believe we have already received the money.

They knew the BACS were still outstanding because they take 3-4 days to complete.

This leaves us with the horrible thought that we may have to apply individually to reclaim our CHAPS transfers.

It certainly would explain the delay but it doesn’t excuse ING’s lack of communication and false conflicting claims by their call centre.

Please can you confirm I have interpreted your excellent analysis of the situation?

If I am correct, ouch. :eek:

Oblivion

dag wrote: »

Still - I don't know. I'm totally guessing. Point is, I can understand there being discrepancies in the initial account balance data that ING received, and I wouldn't be surprised if these had been caused by KSF reporting that transactions had gone through when in fact they hadn't, because they didn't realise they were frozen.

Steady on dag. If you start posting common sense responses like this, you'll be branded a troll by all the sheep and ostriches in this thread.

Dave.

tmvc2007

Please read the posts of the last 24 hours. I am compliling a database of not recievied CHAPS requests either PM or email to lovelife24@
hotmail.co.uk

There is no point in panic. Our money has not just gone. There may be a problem with timing.

Don't post 'fear' - let me know the details. So far £3.3m - 105 transfers

Read the thread - at least from yesterday

nomorekids

philiprn wrote: »

I emailed the dynamic duo Hemmings and Rutland, got the same stock reply.

Kind of him to let us have his phone number - I suggets a few of us call him on Monday - 0118 938 1952 - Alastair Hemmings

CHAPS request for ~ 50k made 7th, debited 8th - still waiting

You call them and threaten them with me and kids. There headquarters is so close to where I live,.....

ontherun_2

AB31 wrote: »

Bigg. If you want a bit more text emphasing the hopeless nature of Ing's helplines, this might be useful:

Several contributors on the "moneysavingexpert" forum have made telephone calls to Ing's helplines over the past few days trying to obtain clarification of when the overdue payments will be made, but all they've received is further promises that have turned out to be wrong in many cases. It seems that Ing have grosly under-resourced their payments facilities following the take-over of K-E accounts, and have provided inadequate briefing to their helpline staff who have merely engage in offering platitudes to many worried customers. It is a fact, for example, that Ing helpline staff do not have access to any customer details relating to K-E deposits. In reality they have no idea when requested transfers will be made, but neverthless they have passed on to customers what has turned out to be misleading information, which has simply fuelled further concern.

Very well put AB31