compulsory overtime

Zazen999

poet123 wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest that all unemployed people are just too picky about sticking to the contract and are unemployable because of it?

If the posts here are representative then Yes,that is what I am saying. All that is being asked is a bit of goodwill,at some point any employee may need it reciprocated by their employer,and then if they don't comply they are the baddies.

Educational establishments are different to industry,and accepted norms are different so the comment is not irrelevant but in fact very pertinent. Perhaps that is the issue..the OP may be in the wrong sector,but requiring the perks of that sector...clear choice.

As I said, fascinating. In my side of the training industry, we would always plan in our staff training within their working hours, not outside of that.

Interesting that on the other thread, you think a night shift worker should not have to attend training during the day...but a term time worker should attend training outside of the term. Or do contracts not matter if you work for an educational establishments?

poet123

My comments on the other thread were to do with the fact that the nightworker needs some sleep. Also the notice given was derisory. The same was not true of the poster on this thread,so the two are not comparable. Nor was the thread title as emotive.

It is not a question of contracts not mattering,more that in education most employees see the need for continuity for studentss during term time, and therefore see the need for SD to take place outiside these times. Perhaps the nature of the job mainly attracts those with an altruisitic streak,and we can't understand those who are just in it for their own ends.

Oldernotwiser

Zazen999 wrote: »

As I said, fascinating. In my side of the training industry, we would always plan in our staff training within their working hours, not outside of that.

I thanked you by mistake, but never mind.

Your comment above says it all, really. Education is not part of "the training industry" (well, not yet, thank God!); it comes from a different tradition and background with different philosophies and staff motivation.

The main difference here seems to be the definition of "working hours", as most staff would expect to do preparation, marking and general professional updating, outside of their normal working day. I know that this discussion hasn't been about working in schools, but you're surely not one of those people who believe that school teachers get a full 13 weeks' holiday, completely free and clear from any work whatsoever?

Zazen999

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I thanked you by mistake, but never mind.

Your comment above says it all, really. Education is not part of "the training industry" (well, not yet, thank God!); it comes from a different tradition and background with different philosophies and staff motivation.

The main difference here seems to be the definition of "working hours", as most staff would expect to do preparation, marking and general professional updating, outside of their normal working day. I know that this discussion hasn't been about working in schools, but you're surely not one of those people who believe that school teachers get a full 13 weeks' holiday, completely free and clear from any work whatsoever?

It's got nothing to do with what I believe.

It's got to do with what is in the contracts that the employer issues, .

If the employer advertises and interviews staff telling them they are term time only - then that is what they are.

I have personal views on 'education' and 'training' - but this is not coming from that perspective.

The OP applies and is hired on the expectation of 6 or 7 full weeks during the summer free. The employer books 5 or 6 events and training course - not all during the same week - leaving only 1 clear week during the summer.

That's either bad management, ineptitude, misunderstanding of their own contractural arrangements or just old fashioned taking the p1ss.

It's one thing asking, on a one-off occasion to attend. It's another to make this a common occurence with no regard for those who are not there during the summer, and even less for what they might be doing during their own time.

As mentioned to the other poster; we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

P.S.; if you personally book say 2 two-week holidays or 4 one-week holidays to use up your annual leave - how happy would you be if they booked training during 3 of those week and expected you to turn up to training? Although not exactly the same - If I book leave - it's my leave - and I'd be seething if they planned training and asked me to attend. Esp if they then did it every year.

poet123

The example you gave is extreme. I wouLd suspect we are talking about the occasional day tacked onto the end of term time,or half term,certainly not weeks of planned training. Unless you really are in need of a skill update.

For example my last SD was 28th June,my students finished on 26th june,but I was required/requested to go in on the Monday after for SD. I work term time only,but it would not have occured to me to refuse,it is the accepted norm. Also, term time for Colleges is less than schools,so any children the OP has woud still be in school which means no childcare issue arise.

Zazen999

lill wrote: »

And my issue is that it IS becoming regular, last summer 8 days, 1 day at least nearly every half term this year and now another 6 for this summer.

The above is from the OP's post - so not extreme; these days are not in a block but spaced out during the summer.

poet123

The definition of "summer " for a College can run from May 15th (when the first tranche of courses officially end) to September 15th when courses re start. So even 6 days spaced out during that period is not too onerous,but tbh that level/amount of SD rings bells for me,either there are new procedures(which may be the new Diploma courses) or serious personal shortcomings which need to be addressed.

If the latter why should additional training be done at the expense of students?,if the former they are a one off requirement.

In any event I suspect that the contract actually specifies a number of hours over a 36 week period, rather than states term time and a specific number of hours per week. That being the case(which is common with non teaching College contracts)her argument does not stand.

I have just looked at the OP and she states that her contract does not state "term time" so it will be worded as above.

For example 900 hours over a 36 week period equates to 25 per week,contracts begin on a specified date usually August 1st,but Colleges only re open in Sept so the teaching/admin hours do not actually begin to be worked until shortly before that date,which means in practice you work 28/30 hours for a smaller number of weeks,and do SD or induction programmes in the earlier weeks which count towards
your hours.

This is why term time in a college setting suits many parents,as the term time is different ie more hours off,than schools.

It is a very different set up to industry,much more flexible, which is appreciated by most staff.

Coupon-mad

poet123 wrote: »

The example you gave is extreme. I would suspect we are talking about the occasional day tacked onto the end of term time,or half term,certainly not weeks of planned training. Unless you really are in need of a skill update.

Then quite simply, the OP should have been told that the job requirements were 'term time plus 6' (or whatever). That's the issue and it's a really simple one that her employer has failed on. Lill has previously posted that she was not taken on a 'term time plus' contract, but that she has emails proving she is considered to be on a term-time only contract.

Also I didn't see the OP post that she worked in education anyway? Not all term-time only contracts are in schools and colleges; many are offered by offices as a way of encouraging job applications they would not otherwise get, from people with childcare issues or other summer arrangements. Also it's a way of the customer service sector saving money by not having to pay people all year round.

I work in education now BTW. I have also preciously worked as a Manager in an customer service environment. There are differences of course but neither are exempt from the law.

poet123

Check out her other posts,she is a College employee. They make interesting reading actually;) School contracts are different to College contracts in that they do often specify term time plus xyz,as these weeks are outside the normal school closing weeks.

Colleges do not usually specify like this,as they are open all year round,thus the format of the contract is xxx weeks and/or xxx hours, maybe she is working at the wrong type of educational establishment for her needs.

Zazen999

poet123 wrote: »

Check out her other posts,she is a College employee. They make interesting reading actually;) School contracts are different to College contracts in that they do often specify term time plus xyz,as these weeks are outside the normal school closing weeks.

Colleges do not usually specify like this,as they are open all year round,thus the format of the contract is xxx weeks and/or xxx hours, maybe she is working at the wrong type of educational establishment for her needs.

Or perhaps the employer is recruiting the wrong sort of people for their needs.