Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

JerryW

Peanut777 said:

.... Please can you advise us on this matter.  Many thanks

Can't help I'm afraid .. moving from one heat system to another has consequences, and this is one of them. I don't think Carvers stance is unreasonable, and perhaps it is one of the reasons their prices are low. But in fact all the contracts I have had, from Calor, Flogas and Avanti, have had a very similar clause.

Removal of the tank involves two people, a large lorry, and a crane (probably attached to the lorry). The tank will also have to be stored, then reconditioned and cleaned before it can be used elsewhere.

Of course whatever the contract states, you can always try to negotiate better terms.. they may extract any residual propane and credit you, for example, or they may reduce the total cost if removal is straightforward. But your bargaining position is weak and they have little incentive to be kind to someone who they will most likely never be doing business with again.

Be careful where you site the oil tank. If you can, make it completely invisible to passers-by. One of the hidden benefits of LPG compared to oil, is that it is very difficult to steal!

mcmullank

Peanut777 said:

Hi.  We are currently running on a 28 day contract with Carvers (based in Wolverhampton) and we are in Warwickshire.  We have been happy with their service and the fact we are not tied in to a 2 year contract and prices were reasonable.  We are now having a new boiler with oil tank so have informed Carvers of this and they tell me that if we were moving to another LPG supplier they would remove the tank with no charge, or transfer ownership to the new supplier   But due to the fact we will be purchasing oil instead of LPG means that we will be responsible for the costs for them to remove the tank. (approx £500).

Reading their contract I cannot find a specific point regarding this but it does say -
5.4  Upon termination of this agreement for any reason the customer shall forthwith cease to be in possession of the  equipment with the consent of the supplier and shall permit the supplier to enter the premises to remove the equipment at the customers expense unless a domestic customer  has switched to a new supplier using a supplier switch notice, in which case the customer will not be charged with any costs directly connected with uplifting the equipment.  The supplier shall allow the customer to retain possession of the equipment for a reasonable period not exceeding 1 month after the termination of the agreement to use up any residual LPG contained in the equipment.  no refund of installation charges or any residual LPG will be available on termination of this agreement.

Please can you advise us on this matter.  Many thanks

Depending on what your standing charge is you could indicate to Carver that you will sign a new contract in the full knowledge that you won't be ordering futher deliveries and pay the standing charge to keep the tank.  This obviously is not beneficial to either party and you may find that they will either a) refuse to provide a new contract or b) Up-lift your tank for a token charge.  If they a) refuse to provide a new contract then you can insist that they remove the tank from your property on the basis of non-provision of service and dispute any charge that they may attempt to levy on you.

JerryW

mcmullank said:
Depending on what your standing charge is you could indicate to Carver that you will sign a new contract in the full knowledge that you won't be ordering futher deliveries and pay the standing charge to keep the tank.  This obviously is not beneficial to either party and you may find that they will either a) refuse to provide a new contract or b) Up-lift your tank for a token charge.  If they a) refuse to provide a new contract then you can insist that they remove the tank from your property on the basis of non-provision of service and dispute any charge that they may attempt to levy on you.

This would have a number of disadvantages, including making the property quite hard to sell .. and I think Carvers would have an unassailable legal right to enforce the current contract clause

mcmullank

JerryW said:

mcmullank said:
Depending on what your standing charge is you could indicate to Carver that you will sign a new contract in the full knowledge that you won't be ordering futher deliveries and pay the standing charge to keep the tank.  This obviously is not beneficial to either party and you may find that they will either a) refuse to provide a new contract or b) Up-lift your tank for a token charge.  If they a) refuse to provide a new contract then you can insist that they remove the tank from your property on the basis of non-provision of service and dispute any charge that they may attempt to levy on you.

This would have a number of disadvantages, including making the property quite hard to sell .. and I think Carvers would have an unassailable legal right to enforce the current contract clause

Hypothetically they would be in breach of contract if they refused to continue the contract when you have agreed to continue to pay the standing charges.  It is similar to how a supplier will continue to charge you the standing charge when the contract is no longer in force. 

Ultimately the tank belongs to the supplier and if they decide that you are no longer entitled to use it then it is their responsibility to remove their equipment from your property.  Any attempt to enforce a charge for removing equipment that you have agreed to continue to pay for would fall foul of the CRA 2015.

The purpose would be to strengthen your negotiating position in regards to the reasonableness of the charge.

JerryW

Hi All

If the following is useful or interesting to you, PLEASE DO THE SAME, when your contract expires!

I have just renewed my lpg contract, as we all must do every two years if we know what we are about. This year I did phone around, but I asked for a two year fix from everyone I spoke to. I am tired of mid-contract wrangles, as all the majors seem to want to do their best to take advantage of you. At the moment I am with Avanti.

I phoned all of the four suppliers that the trade body supplied, Avanti, Flogas, Calor and Rose Gas:

https://www.liquidgasuk.org/advice/supplier-search

I also spoke to Jgas and Extragas as well as a couple of other brokers that claimed to have cheap gas. So I have had a fair look around.

Jgas said they could not supply my area. To be fair they are mainly a Scottish company, they do have a depot in Southampton but apparently it was just too far.

Rose Gas were nice to talk to and I would love to use them but they were well out of range at 38p/l +VAT

Calor offered 33p variable, or 35p fixed for one year then a 3.5p cap on year two. Might be a good deal, if I trusted them more than I do. Unfortunately their sales staff have been awful, over the years. Totally unprincipled. If they look at the average price they are charging they should be genuinely ashamed of themselves.

Flogas offered 32.5p for a two year fix. I thought that quite a good offer.

Avanti are my current supplier and I have no complaints about the way they have managed my account and dealt with refill requests. They do have the usual budget account and autofill facilities, but I just ask for a refill when I want it and then pay for it in full via an invoice. They have done this online, with no problems at all. They did blot their copybook by asking for a seriously unjustified rise when my last 12 month fix expired, but they did retract it when challenged. Mostly.

They offered me 30p fixed for 12 months, which I thought was a good price .. but of course then, there is their famous unlimited increase possibility. I told them I was worried about that and eventually they offered me 33p fixed for two years, which I have accepted. Flogas is a little cheaper but staying where I am is probably worth 0.5p/l .. still I will bear them in mind next time

I also spoke to Extragas, who only offered me 36p but although they will supply me here in Kent they are another Northern company, who may not be quoted on comparison sites but still I expect can offer a very good price if you are local to them. I will do another post when I get round to it, about how competitive the lpg market really is.. suffice to say, I think it could be a lot more so, and maybe there is more we can do

Please, everyone, DO shop around and DO tell us how you get on. Next time it might help YOU

Jerry

LittleVermin

JerryW said:

Hi All

If the following is useful or interesting to you, PLEASE DO THE SAME, when your contract expires!

I have just renewed my lpg contract, as we all must do every two years if we know what we are about. This year I did phone around, but I asked for a two year fix from everyone I spoke to. I am tired of mid-contract wrangles, as all the majors seem to want to do their best to take advantage of you. 
<snip>

I also spoke to Extragas, who only offered me 36p but although they will supply me here in Kent they are another Northern company, who may not be quoted on comparison sites but still I expect can offer a very good price if you are local to them.
<snip>
Please, everyone, DO shop around and DO tell us how you get on. Next time it might help YOU

Jerry

I negotiated a 2 yr deal with Extragas - which may be based in Manchester but subcontracts deliveries to other suppliers where necessary (in my case Flogas - no problems: I deal with Extragas and the Flogas tanker fills my tank here in Cornwall). Be aware that when Woldlink was charging customers 20ppl Woldlink was paying Flogas 14ppl (and all the bureaucratic stuff was being done by Flogas!) - how do we know? - someone at Woldlink told someone on this forum (and then probably regretted it!)...and the someone on this forum sent me a pm. Majors want to keep their volumes and market share up. I'm paying 35.5ppl - negotiated before the slump.

When there were earlier discussions on this forum about 2 yr contracts I contacted Extragas for their views. Here's the relevant part of their reply [quote]:

Firms will do them depending on the circumstance of the customer and the market at the time.

 I would have thought that was true for all bar the majors. [end quote]

Mister_G

I must admit that I have been very lucky with my small local independent.  Currently paying 33ppl (went up earlier in the year from the 30ppl it had been for 4 years) and no contract.
Their depot is 4 miles from me, so deliveries are no problem.

Andrew1066

May I ask who your local independent is please in case they do my area?
Thank you 

razorbridge

Hi, does anyone know why on www.extrafuel.co.uk (which I believe are just extragas really) it shows a price of 54p together with a banner of "LPG at wholesale prices", and you are all quoting prices far less than that price?

JerryW

razorbridge said:

Hi, does anyone know why on www.extrafuel.co.uk (which I believe are just extragas really) it shows a price of 54p together with a banner of "LPG at wholesale prices", and you are all quoting prices far less than that price?

Why not phone them, and ask?