Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

JerryW

LucyBe said:

Hi,
We recently purchased a property in Suffolk/ Cambridgeshire borders.  There don't seem to be any independent suppliers around here for bulk LPG, only Avanti, FloGas and Calor.

Hi .. can't be sure as I don't live there but I would think there must surely be one or two .. Woldlink, Extragas .. at the moment prices SHOULD be at a historic low, but that doesn't seem to have come through from oil to lpg. Quelle surprise

Alfricker

I have been trying for years to find some information about how the price of LPG changes from year to year. Somewhere there must be an index of LPG pricing.

My supplier, FLOWGAS, are requesting a price increase of 26.9% for the second year of my contract. Current price 37p/ litre going to 46.9p/ litre. When challenged they said that the wholesale price had gone up 50% over the past 12 months !!! Why should LPG buck the downward energy price trend.

Surely MSE are able to help verify this seemingly outrageous statement and help us achieve fair LPG prices.

LittleVermin

Alfricker said:

I have been trying for years to find some information about how the price of LPG changes from year to year. Somewhere there must be an index of LPG pricing.

My supplier, FLOWGAS, are requesting a price increase of 26.9% for the second year of my contract. Current price 37p/ litre going to 46.9p/ litre. When challenged they said that the wholesale price had gone up 50% over the past 12 months !!! Why should LPG buck the downward energy price trend.

Surely MSE are able to help verify this seemingly outrageous statement and help us achieve fair LPG prices.

Welcome Alfricker! I'm so sorry your search for the Holy Grail has been unsuccessful so far. Mystic Meg tells me you'll never find any rationale for bulk LPG prices ...many have searched! The general conclusion is the price is what the suppliers can get away with. Elderly loyal customer? - push up their prices slowly over the years, and they'll subsidise the initial 'not-profitable' introductory offers to new customers or users of other suppliers who are thinking of switching (since a contract cannot last more than 2 years ...and the supplier MUST tell the customer towards the end of the 2 years that they can switch). For many years a forumite called HateLPG (his username tells you all you need to know!) used to post graphs of the wholesale price (Argus North Sea Index - ANSI, and before that Platts) converted into pence per litre with the prices posted by independent suppliers. Then fewer and fewer indies posted prices (because the majors ALWAYS undercut any offers they made to users (those introductory offers!), and also the indies got bought up by the majors (so the big three - Calor, Flogas and Avantigas) have over 90% of the market again (I'm told).
1. You can check your contract - do they have to show you evidence of the wholesale price over the last 12 months? Ask them to produce it! If they don't are they breaking the contract...and you can walk away (giving notice). . 2. Write to the CMA (Competition & Markets Authority) - they are quite used to hearing from domestic LPG users (quite often organised by this forum!). 3. We have tried to mobilise MSE to fight our corner ...but we are too few. 4. Contact your MP. Some are more sympathetic ...and quite a few have heard from forum users about rip-offs. A few have been useful. 5. Contact your local Trading Standards. A few have been helpful...6. Contact UtilitiesADR - (Alternative Dispute Resolution) - Flogas is part of this because UKLPG is a member. ......7. Contact your local paper...or the consumer help-desk of a national: they've done research, run stories, got results (and sometimes the suppliers have got the injured party to sign a NDA - Non-disclosure Agreement.- as part of the deal. Yes, we (this forum) have helped people .... and then they have refused to report back to other people on this forum. So nice! ..
..
and finally bear in mind that Woldlink - an East Anglian based farm supplier offered great prices ...and Flogas delivered. And someone at Woldlink told a forum user that while they were charging 20ppl to customers they were paying Flogas 14ppl...and Flogas did all the contracts, billing, etc! So Woldlink got 6ppl for being a ...dating agency! So many domestic users switched to Woldlink that they shut the door to new entrants to their best tracker price.. 
..
Good luck, please tell us how you get on - and here's a link to HateLPG's last graph - from January 2018 so only of historic interest. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73705113/#Comment_73705113

JerryW

Alfricker said:

I have been trying for years to find some information about how the price of LPG changes from year to year. Somewhere there must be an index of LPG pricing.
My supplier, FLOWGAS, are requesting a price increase of 26.9% for the second year of my contract. Current price 37p/ litre going to 46.9p/ litre. When challenged they said that the wholesale price had gone up 50% over the past 12 months !!! Why should LPG buck the downward energy price trend.
Surely MSE are able to help verify this seemingly outrageous statement and help us achieve fair LPG prices.

First, nobody is very interested in the LPG market because there aren't enough voters using it to make a real difference. What with brexit and coronavirus they all have bigger fish to fry. So we are on our own, but that does not mean we are helpless ..

Second, nobody should *ever* accept a 27% price rise. First of all write Flogas a very polite letter (you can send it via email, but do write a proper letter) saying that your contract says that anything more than 3% (or whatever the contract says) must be supported by written evidence of wholesale price increases in the marketplace. Tell them you will be happy to give them up to 14 days to produce it. Tell them that if they aren't able to do so, please will they take your letter as notice to terminate the contract. Look at the contract and tell them the precise terminal date. If you want to be cheeky, you can offer to let them quote for the new contract, to be considered alongside others.. I would think that will produce an effect, but if not ask them to confirm that their complaints procedure has been exhausted so you can complain directly to the regulator. Be polite, but firm and business like. And mean what you say. And let us know how you get on. See my own letter a page or two back..

Finally, that is a very good point about LPG Pricing indices. They do exist but they are generally not made available to the public. Certainly the ANSI Index isn't. I wonder if one of you who buy gas from the independents could get it from them? Come on everyone, let us find the index information! It is surely at a historic low just now ... failing that you can find crude oil price data which should be close enough to use as evidence..

Badger04

Hi Alfricker, as you will see from many earlier correspondents, you need to approach as many suppliers as possible to get price update every time you are close to coming out of contract. Prices from independents at the moment around 35p per litre. Issue is they quote spot, so price can increase at any time. For fixed, Avanti, quote lower on being pushed, but then will increase if market price increases. Calor and flogas will give fixed price with increase fixed in second year. Also carefully check price for tank rental and figure this into calculation.
you have to be prepared to switch, which is not difficult. You will then find that your supplier will come back with a competitive quote. However, if people do not go through with switch, we will all end up paying a higher price, so spend a couple of hours on this and save yourself some money. I have found the companies I have dealt with professional and they are trying to maximise their returns as most companies do. Think how much you would pay for car insurance if you did not shop around!
hope this helps.

rmbaker0704

I have been caught in exactly the same way as Alfricker ,same price increase for 2nd year of contract.I am heartened by other
comments on here and intend to fight.Anybody had any outcomes yet?

JerryW

rmbaker0704 said:

I have been caught in exactly the same way as Alfricker ,same price increase for 2nd year of contract.I am heartened by other
comments on here and intend to fight.Anybody had any outcomes yet?

Avanti retracted most of my price rise last October, see above somewhere .. unless they produce written evidence of underlying market increases, which they obviously cannot do with the market close to historic lows, you are entitled to give notice and move elsewhere.

Jerry

Andrew1066

For interest, In my continuing battle with Flogas I today quoted section 8.3 of the contract which states they can raise prices if there is an increase in the Platts index. I’ve asked for the evidence this is the case and their reply was “this is protected by copyright so they can’t share it”
i have now escalated the matter and I’m awaiting response from somebody senior In their customer services team. 

JerryW

Andrew1066 said:

For interest, In my continuing battle with Flogas I today quoted section 8.3 of the contract which states they can raise prices if there is an increase in the Platts index. I’ve asked for the evidence this is the case and their reply was “this is protected by copyright so they can’t share it”
i have now escalated the matter and I’m awaiting response from somebody senior In their customer services team. 

No evidence, no increase ... tell them that coundts as notice to leave the contract. Also, when you get the chance ask them to confirm that their complaints procedure has been completed so you can contact the regulator.

On a different tack, just how outrageous is it, that someone wants to increase your costs on the basis of an index they won't show you?!

Andrew1066

Thanks Jerry I will do that and let me know it goes. 

Unfortunately it does seem to epitomise their attitude. 

Indeed today’s chap started by saying they are doing me a favour stating they could have raised It by 12 PPL  
To which I pointed out the 5p contractual cap In year two and was subsequently put on hold.  

You couldn’t make this stuff up. 

But t shows how vulnerable people are often getting sc##wed.