Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

AdrianC

That'll be within the two-year date of the contract. When was the previous owner's contract signed?

LittleVermin

deaston wrote: »

.........

Reading the small print of the contract, it says if I move home and the new owner doesn't continue with Calor, I'm liable for the £276 "tank lifting fee".

So, as the new owner, if I don't stay with Calor, I'm guessing Calor will go after the people we bought this house from for the £276...

Well, the contract was between Calor and the previous owner!

Enough said.

Thanks very much for letting the forum know about this - there are several - ahem - surprising clauses in these contracts. Well, not in all suppliers' contracts (and at least two independent suppliers don't even insist on a contract .. 'if you find a better deal and want to go through the effort of changing suppliers then good luck' seems to be their view!).

When users have posted about these restrictive clauses in the past other forum users always recommended telling the Office of Fair Trading ...but the OFT got demolished. BUT we did get some improvements to contracts via the OFT (recorded in posts from several years back).
..

J_B

deaston wrote: »

The contract says that the tank remains the property of Calor. So can I even change supplier or am I locked to Calor?

Not sure what existing arrangements were with previous owner (I'm not even sure that matters, but maybe more knowledgeable folks can advise?)
Anyway, our tank was installed by Calor on contract 5 years ago.
After 2 years we moved to Avanti and last year we went with Flogas (through Woldlink)

LittleVermin

If you are the new owner of a domestic property with an LPG tank in place, here are some of the different scenarios (based on previous posts, and reading other guff) as I understand them [so please check - and please correct me if necessary!].

1. The previous property owner owned the tank and you want to continue with LPG: you now own the tank (and are free to buy LPG from any supplier willing to supply you. Make sure you have obtained the 10yr test certificate(s) from the previous owner, or get it tested by an LPG-ticketed Gas Safe engineer. The tanker driver does the required visual-and-sniff for an overground tank before each delivery - and this must be at least every year - so you need to know the date of the last delivery. Situation more complex for underground tanks as sacrificial anode has to be replaced each year, I believe).

You now own any LPG in the tank - the previous owner may have sold you this separately.

Before you get quotes from suppliers it's advisable to check the tank and surrounds meet current CoP (Codes of Practice): how do you find out? UKLPG sells these (see website http://www.uklpg.org) or, more simply, check out various suppliers' websites for info re closeness to buildings and boundaries, vegetation, powerlines, visibility from refilling tanker, etc) to spot any glaring problems.

2. The previous owner owned the tank but you do not want to use LPG. You now own the tank and can keep it or sell it. You may only be able to sell it for scrap (check the date of manufacture on the tank): companies will only move tanks with less than 5% LPG in them. Suppliers are unwilling to buy back LPG - they need to send a tanker to pump it out ....and mentions of receiving cash for the gas are very rare on this forum! If the tank is removed you need to expect to make good....e.g. old concrete plinth? hole in the lawn? underground pipes? entry pipe into property?

3. The tank was owned by the previous owner's last supplier (the usual situation) and you do not want to use LPG. Inform the supplier that you now own the property and you would like them to remove their tank. If necessary add "within xx days" (be reasonable!). You might be helpful and tell them the percentage left in the tank - they will know the tank's capacity - so will know what size tanker to bring to remove the LPG before they can use a (Hi-Ab probably) to lift the (almost-empty) tank onto their truck. You can ask but they will probably not pay you for the LPG - indeed, they will probably want YOU to pay them to remove THEIR tank! Remember the contract was with the previous owner - and all the clauses re uplift and costs were binding on that person not you (unless, of course, the previous owner put that in the sale of the property to you). However this works out you will need to make good after the tank is removed.

4. The tank was owned by the previous owner's last supplier (the usual situation) and you want to use LPG. Very often the tank owner will send you a contract to supply LPG: you do NOT have to sign this and you can find your own supplier. Several people on this forum have reported that they believed they had to use the same supplier (a little dishonesty here by the supplier?). NO, NO and NO! Check out potential suppliers by putting your postcode in the box in the UKLPG website (see above) - but this only tells you about the suppliers who are members of the UK LPG trade association. Not all suppliers are members (e.g. Extra Fuel - supplying across most of the UK) and several farmers' co-ops (e.g. Woldlink and Mole Valley Farmers - both national) may give you a better price than going directly to the supplier. You do not need to be a farmer to join some co-ops, and membership costs range from zero upwards (Mole Valley was £10 p.a. when I last checked). There may be a deal via your local council (e.g. Malvern Hills has a deal with Lister Gases for anyone within their district).

All suppliers who wish to supply you MUST give a quote over the phone (subject to site inspection - i.e. to check out whether the tank meets current CoP, access, etc). Suppliers do not have to offer to supply! - even if you are apparently in their area according to the UKLPG website.

Tank rental costs can vary appreciably (overground is usually £50-75 p.a.) and so best to include this on your chart of prospective supplier along with the initial price, maximum rise, and any 'sweeteners' (aka "free gas") - plus the name of who you spoke to! It's useful to know how much - in litres - the previous owner used a year as higher users get lower prices. Once you have got the quotes it makes sense to bargain: it really is quite amazing how much some suppliers will drop their prices to get volume! I have been told someone is paying Flogas 67p per litre and someone else is paying Flogas 23.71p per litre this December (2015). Same product (there is no 'budget'/'supersaver'/'essential'/etc LPG: it all comes from only a very few refineries ...and most suppliers fill their tankers at each others' depots).

HateLPG's price charts - posted monthly - are invaluable! (please add your thanks below the chart you use!). Only a few suppliers are transparent about prices and post them on their websites (these include Cardiff Gas, Lister Gases, Extra Fuel, Birmingham Gas and Carver ...but it's still worth seeing if they will do a deal, especially if you are, or will be, a big user). Calor, Flogas (also owning Mac Gas) and Avantigas - which have nearly 90% of the domestic LPG 'market' - do not publish prices, but they may tell customers that they are getting a discount off their "standard price": forum users never seem to be able to find out what this "standard price" is, but once they look at HateLPG's chart they realise the 'standard price' provides lots of gravy for the suppliers' owners/shareholders!

The change of ownership of tanks is done by the outgoing and incoming suppliers - with a formula for the price laid down by the [former] Competition Commission. All the LPG user has to do is sign a 'supplier switch notice' (SSN). The switch has to be completed in 28 days - and the companies are supposed to ensure you do not run out of LPG (in several forum users' experience the outgoing supplier plays hard ball about this). The incoming supplier does not have to buy the tank - they can supply their own with the previous supplier removing theirs (you do NOT pay for the removal). In this case the new supply has to be in place in 42 days.

5. The LPG supply is communal - maybe for a group of barn conversions or for a metered estate. If you are on a metered estate you cannot switch supplier until everyone is out of contract (contracts are a maximum of 2 years) so in effect you can never switch as suppliers will sign up new owners - and even new tenants! - to keep everyone locked in. BUT there are people on this forum who have taken on their suppliers and got the ability to switch (search for 'metered estate' in 'Search this thread' near the top of this page). But mostly metered estates are seen as 'cash cows' by the suppliers. There have also been reports of problems with small developments - e.g. farm/barns development - so you need to be very clear in advance about your obligations.

Apologies about the length of this post - but I hope it is comprehensive - and where it isn't - or is wrong - I hope others will post.
..

deaston

Post deleted.

J_B

deaston wrote: »

max 3.5p increase in second year.

Methinks that Flogas will ensure that this will be increased to the max - make sure you follow prices and battle with them to stop it increasing!

deaston wrote: »

Telemetry system for automatic top-up included at no additonal cost.

Not sure this is a good idea - you want it filling (within reason) 'at the best price', which *may* be just as important as 'at the right time'!

deaston

J_B wrote: »

Not sure this is a good idea - you want it filling (within reason) 'at the best price', which *may* be just as important as 'at the right time'!

Considering it's fixed for the first 12 months, that's not going to be a concern for the time being. But forgetting to check my tank and suddenly finding myself out of LPG is something I'd like to avoid.

Sometimes, there's more to consider than just "the best price". One should also consider customer service and technology such as the telemetry system - these things come at a cost to the provider which needs to be recovered in their unit price.

J_B

deaston wrote: »

Considering it's fixed for the first 12 months, that's not going to be a concern for the time being. But forgetting to check my tank and suddenly finding myself out of LPG is something I'd like to avoid.

Sometimes, there's more to consider than just "the best price". One should also consider customer service and technology such as the telemetry system - these things come at a cost to the provider which needs to be recovered in their unit price.

Methinks you need to read the whole of this thread that we are posting in as well as this particular post in another thread
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=69812647&postcount=7

You may then find that the 'customer service' that you speak of is in short supply in the LPG industry, particularly with the company that you have chosen!!

Anyway, like you say ...
<<there's more to consider than just "the best price">>

mcmullank

J_B wrote: »

Methinks you need to read the whole of this thread that we are posting in as well as this particular post in another thread
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=69812647&postcount=7

You may then find that the 'customer service' that you speak of is in short supply in the LPG industry, particularly with the company that you have chosen!!

Anyway, like you say ...
<<there's more to consider than just "the best price">>

Ignorance is bliss.

paddytt

Our current Calor contract at 44p is ending shortly, and we've been quoted the following:

- Flogas 29.5p plus £250

- Calor 29p plus £200 "loyalty" discount

- Avanti 28.5p plus £250 and rental £110 pa (the others didn't quote a rental figure).

It's despicable that Calor have not reduced our price during the "variable" part of our contract from 44p down towards the 29p that they just quoted, but anyone reading this thread will know why that is. What is really despicable is that they sent a letter the previous day, which arrived after my call to them, stating that they were "pleased to be able to fix our price at the current rate [44p] for a further three months"...! Very pleased no doubt, to be able to rip us off for another three months having done so already for the past 12.