Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Mister_G

johnnymack50 wrote: »

Many thanks to all posting on here. I had an old contract with Eurogas (taken over by Calor) which expired a few years ago and I had resisted signing with anyone although I have been supplied by Calor.

Previous price I have been paying was 59.4 +VAT but, with the help of this forum, I obtained a quote from Avantti of 43.9 + VAT fixed for 6 months. Have a few problems with where the tank is sited so went back to Calor and negotiated 45p fixed for 9 months, £50 credit and max increase of 3.5p per 6 months.
As I use 3000+ litres p.a. that's a minimum of £420 saving not including the credit!
Before I came across this forum I did not actually realise the price was negotiable and naively assumed there was one fixed price across the UK!

Do your 'tank siting' problems mean that you could not change supplier due to the tank's location?

I had a similar problem with Calor and I would only sign a new contract with them if they relocated the tank to a 'safe place'. This they did, but 6 months later they broke the 3.5ppl clause in the contract.

I therefore terminated the contract and went elsewhere. Because I had the tank moved, it meant that there was no problem with other suppliers supplying me.

dinnjo

My location is North Argyll. My contract with Flogas recently ran out. About a month before my contract expired they sent me a letter offering to freeze my price at 55ppl + VAT for the first six months of a new contract. Having been underwhelmed by this offer I just ignored the letter. Just before the end of my contract they sent me another letter saying that their prices were rising to 58ppl + VAT.

After the end of my contract I put my post code into UKLPG in order to get a list of suppliers. These are the results of my telephone calls:

Avanti – don’t deliver to my post code.

JGAS – 48.13ppl + VAT, fixed for 6 months then a maximum increase of 3ppl. £60 tank rental

Gleaner – 55.75ppl + VAT. £48 tank rental

Calor – 48ppl + VAT, fixed for 6 months then a maximum increase of 3.5ppl OR 49.9 fixed for 2 years (??? Not sure about this as my notes are a bit garbled/Just done some research and I think it must be a one year fix). In both instances £150 worth of free gas.

In the end I went with none of these. Instead I am in the process of changing to ALBAGASLPG, an independent based in Perthshire. They were offering 46ppl +VAT fixed for 6 months, £60 tank rental and 200 free litres as part of the first delivery.

Perhaps of interest to some is their National Sales Manager mentioned an arrangement that they have to supply a whole community. If interested then search “Benmore and Kilmun community”.

johnnybebad2000

If the Calor deal is 49.9 fixed for 2 years then thats pretty good i think. I'm new to all this but i think if when i am negotiating i was offered that i would go for it.

HateLPG

johnnybebad2000 wrote: »

If the Calor deal is 49.9 fixed for 2 years then thats pretty good i think. I'm new to all this but i think if when i am negotiating i was offered that i would go for it.

If it was genuinely a 2-year fixed price contract, and you were at the lower end of the usage spectrum (i.e. around 2,500 litres per year), it might be worth considering: if wholesale prices rise significantly, you would undoubtedly make a saving, however, if they remain around current levels, you would almost certainly get a better deal from an independent whose price genuinely tracks the wholesale price (such suppliers *do* exist - see the graph elsewhere in this thread).

The other thing to watch is whether they are offering a genuine fix, or whether it's a case of "we will fix the price as long as it's profitable to us, but if our costs go up, your fixed price will rise anyway" (which is far more likely, knowing the way the big [STRIKE]four[/STRIKE] three work!)

And even if it is a genuine fix, and the contract says so, Calor have past form in trying to "interpret" the contract an a way that is more favourable to themselves - I had exactly this situation about four years ago and I had to get quite forceful with them before they finally buckled and honoured terms of the contract as written.

So in short, yes, it may be worth considering if you are a low-volume user and you want price stability and security, but as I've said in the past, read the contract until your eyes bleed before you sign anything.

I would also say (again) that for anyone negotiating a new contract (especially if it is with a small independent supplier) insist on the inclusion of a special term that gives you the option to walk away from the contract, without penalty, should the supplier ever be bought out or taken over by another company. It's only common sense, and no reasonable supplier would be likely to refuse your request, especially if they have no intention of selling out. And if they do refuse, it might suggest that a sell out or takeover is either on the cards or at least is something they would contemplate.

J_B

HateLPG wrote: »

If it was genuinely a 2-year fixed price contract, and you were at the lower end of the usage spectrum (i.e. around 2,500 litres per year), it might be worth considering

I've just had a good offer from Avanti of 43ppl in the Snowdonia area of N Wales.
Fixed for 12 months and then a 5p min increase thereafter.
We use about 2500L per year.

Dare I ....
Sign a contract when the tank is nearly empty.
Put 1000L in then
Fill the tank after 364 days
Hope the tank full lasts a year, but will maybe need a small (500?) top up

Am I being too clever?

HateLPG

J_B wrote: »

I've just had a good offer from Avanti of 43ppl in the Snowdonia area of N Wales.
Fixed for 12 months and then a 5p min increase thereafter.
We use about 2500L per year.

Dare I ....
Sign a contract when the tank is nearly empty.
Put 1000L in then
Fill the tank after 364 days
Hope the tank full lasts a year, but will maybe need a small (500?) top up

Am I being too clever?

Sadly, way too clever

A couple of points:

1. what you have posted suggests your usage is closer to 1,000 litres per year, but that Avanti have quoted based on usage of 2,500 litres per year. In all probability, they will therefore try to claim that your quotation was not appropriate for your actual usage and will try to increase your price (although, quite surprisingly, as far as I can see from a quick skip-read of their current contract, there is no clause that would permit them to do that).
2. You will have no control whatosever over the delivery date, and the closer you get to the date that they can push the price up, the less likely they are to agree to make a delivery. Ask any user here and they will tell you that the week after any price rise, you can pretty much guarantee they will turn up and top your tank to the max (even if it is still half full). The only way you might (and I repeat might) get away with it would be to aim to run out completely a week or two before you expect a price rise. But given that you are currently in contract negotiation, that would suggest to me that would be sometime in March or early April next year. And you're in Snowdonia. Do you really want to risk running out at a time when temperatures could be stubbornly sub-zero, and when with the best will in the world, your chosen supplier simply can't get through to make a delivery?

Your best bet is probably to look at a local independent supplier whose prices track wholesale prices and aim to get a fill during the summer.

LittleVermin

dinnjo wrote: »

My location is North Argyll. <snip>

I put my post code into UKLPG <snip>

Calor – 48ppl + VAT, fixed for 6 months then a maximum increase of 3.5ppl OR 49.9 fixed for 2 years (??? Not sure about this as my notes are a bit garbled/Just done some research and I think it must be a one year fix). In both instances £150 worth of free gas.

In the end I went with none of these. Instead I am in the process of changing to ALBAGASLPG, an independent based in Perthshire. They were offering 46ppl +VAT fixed for 6 months, £60 tank rental and 200 free litres as part of the first delivery.

Perhaps of interest to some is their National Sales Manager mentioned an arrangement that they have to supply a whole community. If interested then search “Benmore and Kilmun community”.

Thanks for the quotes and especially for digging out another supplier who's not a member of UKLPG.

Here's ALBAGAS LPG website: http://www.albagas.co.uk

Here's the LPG page on the Benmore and Kilmun Community website: http://www.benmorekilmun.org/index.asp?pageid=300530
Users have to accept delivery on the same day - i.e. a top-up system. (I was on that for years without a problem - apart from BP's prices!).

Please let us know how you get on.

And it would be really helpful if you could check exactly what Calor offered you in the way of a fixed term deal, please. They just might be offering a 2 year fixed deal: they are very large, they have massive storage capacity in a cavern (see here) - and if prices rise a great deal a few uneconomic contracts won't hurt their bottom line... and they can say to all potential customers (and the Office of Fair Trading!) that they offer a full range of contracts. (If anyone is tempted do read HateLPG's post here! And check this for wholesale and one user's Calor price since 2005)
..

dinnjo

If anyone is interested in Albagaslpg a word of warning. The phone number on their website is wrong in so far as it is incomplete. The full number is 0844 8797851, that is the final digit is missing on the website although it can be seen on the smaller details at the bottom of the page.

Their Sales Manager also mentioned a new website which I have just found. It is albagaslpgstirling.co.uk and it has the correct phone number on it.

LittleVermin

dinnjo wrote: »

If anyone is interested in Albagaslpg a word of warning. The phone number on their website is wrong in so far as it is incomplete. The full number is 0844 8797851, that is the final digit is missing on the website although it can be seen on the smaller details at the bottom of the page.

Their Sales Manager also mentioned a new website which I have just found. It is albagaslpgstirling.co.uk and it has the correct phone number on it.

Here's the link for domestic LPG:

http://albagaslpgstirling.co.uk/domestic

Apparently they deliver all over Scotland.

From their "Switching To Us" page (here):

At Alba Gas LPG we strive to have a competitive price for our gas at all times and try to iron out the fluctuation of the gas price throughout the year, and not have to rush a price rise in several times a year as some suppliers do. If during the life time of your contract, the LPG price goes through the roof Alba Gas LPG will introduce a temporary surcharge till the price stabilises. (we have had to impose a surcharge for one month in two years).

If you look at HateLPG's chart (here) 46ppl is a good price at present. Have you asked what happens if the wholesale price drops appreciably?
..

J_B

HateLPG wrote: »

Sadly, way too clever

Doh!

HateLPG wrote: »

what you have posted suggests your usage is closer to 1,000 litres per year.

Mr Calor told me that I had averaged 2500 pa

HateLPG wrote: »

And you're in Snowdonia. Do you really want to risk running out at a time when temperatures could be stubbornly sub-zero, and when with the best will in the world, your chosen supplier simply can't get through to make a delivery?

It's a 'holiday cottage' (yea, I know ... come home to real fire - buy a house in Wales!!) so we hardly use any fuel in the winter coz we don't go there!
The 'sales talk' says that the refinery is at Caernarfon which is not far away, and that's where Calor get it from too "they buy it from us"

We are struggling to find an 'independent' supplier