Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

johnnybebad2000 wrote: »

I'm looking at a 4 bed and thinking 3000 litres a year is what i would use roughly?

The best way to find out (approximately) what you are likely to use is to ask the vendors. There are so many variables that it is impossible to say (although if you like it warm, I'd say you'd be doing well to keep below 3000 litres p.a. for a four bedroom house). The seller is required to have an EPC prior to sale, so check that. If it is in band C or above, I'm sure the usage would be quite reasonable for its size. And of course, your final annual usage is also very dependent on the weather!

If it's a modern house with full insulation, double glazing etc, is in a sheltered location and has a modern and well-designed and well-maintained central heating system, then you may well manage to keep usage around the 3,000 litres bracket.

At the other end of the spectrum, I live in an old, poorly-converted 4 bedroom house with solid walls, minimal insulation (and sadly, very little potential to improve the insulation) in a very exposed position. I don't have an EPC for the house, but if it was graded any better than "F", I would be surprised. In the first year we were here, we got through more than 6,000 litres, and never really got the place properly warm :eek: On deeper investigation, it became apparent that the central heating had been installed by an idiot and then extended by another idiot when the house was extended - there were 17 radiators all fed by 1/2" (15mm) pipe, the system was open-vented when the boiler was specified to run at a pressure of 2 bar, the boiler itself was old and clapped out and the system had never been balanced. We had the boiler replaced, had the core distribution circuit upgraded to 3/4" (22mm) pipe and then I spent some time making sure it was properly balanced. Since then, it is easy to get the house toasty warm, even in bad weather and our usage has dropped to about 5,000 litres per year. This represents a saving of over 1,500 litres LPG a year, so the payback on the work was about 4 years!!

Granted, mine is an extreme case, but it does serve to show that there is a *lot* more to running costs than building size.

thozza

johnnybebad2000 wrote: »

I'm looking at a 4 bed and thinking 3000 litres a year is what i would use roughly?

We are in an old 4 bed house and like to be warm. When we moved in we were using 6,500-7,000 litres per year, but that was with an LPG AGA on full 24/7 heating the hot water (and the loft), and a gas guzzling fuel effect stove in the sitting room, now replaced by a wood burner

We are now down to around 5,500-6,000 litres per year, of which the AGA now uses around 2000 litres. We have taken the boiler out of the AGA and had AIMS (AGA Intelligent Management System) fitted to give some element of time/temperature control. The AGA is still on all year but LPG usage has dropped by around 30%.

Our heating system is a modern condensing boiler heating 11 radiators (appropriately sized for the rooms), with a hot water tank. We mainly shower (LPG heated water) and take few baths (maybe 1-2 a week) as they really eat LPG (a 120 litre bath heated from 10-40 deg C will use around 4Kw which is about 0.6 litres of LPG with boiler efficiency of 90%). The AGA also provides significant heat for the rear part of the house.

We have full 270mm loft insulation and modern double glazing throughout. Walls and downstairs floors are mainly solid so no low cost insulation options are available. We make extensive use of a wood burner in the living room and CH is on for 6 hours per day (in the heating season) with TRV on the radiators and modern controls on the boiler.

If you live in a modern highly insulated house, you might get away with 3,000 litres per year, but it might be prudent to budget for more, particularly if you also cook with LPG.

Following up on what HateLPG has said, investing in things which save LPG makes good sense. As LPG costs so much, paybacks on investment can be reasonably short. Our (substantial) investment in AIMS on the AGA has a payback of under 4 years, as well as giving us some control over it, similarly loft insulation paid back in under 6 months.

HateLPG

What an UTTER joke!

http://www.stockmarketwire.com/article/4518555/OFT-clears-Flogas-BP-deal.html

Sitting in their cosy ivory towers in London's commuter belt, they really do NOT get it, do they! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

LittleVermin

HateLPG wrote: »

Oft not fit for purpose

What an UTTER joke!

http://www.stockmarketwire.com/article/4518555/OFT-clears-Flogas-BP-deal.html

Sitting in their cosy ivory towers in London's commuter belt, they really do NOT get it, do they! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Hmm. OFT "oft not fit for purpose"? That seems a bit generous.

Maybe OFT ALWAYS not fit for purpose.

I wonder if the OFT people read the Competition Commission report (here) which improved the situation for bulk LPG users - by having max 2 yr contracts, compulsory tank switching if incoming supplier wanted it, a formula for tank costs, maximum time for switching, etc, etc. AND if the current OFT team did, by chance, read the report I wonder if they read all the submissions from the major suppliers which even with all the redactions make very interesting reading.

I doubt if OFT has even insisted (or even asked) Flogas to rebrand the BP operation as - honestly - Flogas, rather than Mac Gas. Many (?most) of the heating oil suppliers DCC (Flogas's parent) has bought still trade under their original names (this is worth a read).

Well, there's work for us bulk LPG users on MSE to do. Refuse to be a mushroom - kept in the dark by your LPG supplier. Keep posting prices, spurious charges for tank removal, etc etc.. And - yes - send stuff to Sharon Dias at OFT: one or two small good things have happened (e.g. Flogas being brought into line over contracts - see HateLPG's post here - people need to report when they don't get treated as per their contract).
..

chubbs85240

johnnybebad2000 wrote: »

Thanks for this, Im just finding my way round the thread and having a look of your other posts. Do you own your tank?
Also, where abouts in the Shire are you and what size of house do you have. I'm looking at a 4 bed and thinking 3000 litres a year is what i would use roughly?

I live on Deeside, My house is a 4 Bed bungalow, and using 3500 litres.

The house is never roasting, but is reasonably warm in the evening, we only have the gas on 6-8am and 4.30pm-10.30pm

I have an old boiler and crap insulation, so reckon with a new efficient boiler and good insulation(I.e. new windows!) I could knock a chunk off of that.

So as has been pointed out, call your supplier and ask them to tell you the previous usage by the previous tenants, so that you can budget in the future.

It took me a good while to get my head around it all, but we got our costs down/ heat up, by insulating the loft and replacing the single radiators with doubles, as we were burning more gas, but not getting enough heat when we first moved in. This allowed us to have the radiators at 2/3 instead of previously having the single radiators at 5 and thus reduce my consumption

thozza

I have just had the latest quote for a fill from Northern Energy/Northern LPG of 47.6p per litre plus vat, that will be for +/-800 litres, slightly less than the last fill 7 weeks ago which was at 48p per litre. It looks like prices are falling, but not fast enough. Contract is due for renewal in March, lets see what they offer then?

padric

has anybody experience of an online lpg supplier called 'extrafuel'

HateLPG

padric wrote: »

has anybody experience of an online lpg supplier called 'extrafuel'

If you take time out to read back through the thread (which I would strongly recommend to anyone landing here for the first time), you will find plenty posted here about Extra Fuel (especially by LittleVermin). You will also notice that their prices are included on the graphs of Price Data.

(If you don't want to read absolutely everything, the "Search This Thread" option at the top of the thread display is your friend)

HateLPG

The OFT has now published its judgement on the acquisition of BP by Flogas. It can be found at:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/2013/flogas.pdf

On a quick skip-read, this leapt out at me (there is plenty more hogwash to choose from in that report, believe me!):

The OFT has therefore, on a cautious basis, assessed the impact of the Acquisition [of BP LPG by DCC/Flogas] on domestic and small commercial customers of bulk LPG not only a national basis but also on a regional basis. As the OFT has not found significant competition concerns on either basis, it was not necessary for the OFT to reach a conclusion in this regard.

Hot on the heels of the boilerjuice scandal of last year, I notice that the OFT list the following on their website:
Investigation into the distribution of road fuels in parts of Scotland which is an on-going investigation by the OFT into "abuse of dominance" of GB Oils (like Flogas, a DCC company).

If that doesn't serve as a warning to the OFT in respect of the BP takeover, what does?

It appears that the OFT have taken pretty much everything said by DCC/Flogas in respect of the UK LPG market at face value and without question. Quite frankly (in my opinion), their decision beggars belief!

mindovermatter

Hi,

I have just been in touch with Flogas - they have confirmed with me and put a note on my file that as I have no contract with them, then there will not be a £150 charge to remove their tank.
I did have to challenge them as the initial response was to pay the charge.
I simply have to put the request to remove with 30 days notice in writing to their head office.
Best wishes
Mondovermatter