Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

J_B wrote: »

The 'sales talk' says that the refinery is at Caernarfon which is not far away, and that's where Calor get it from too "they buy it from us"

We are struggling to find an 'independent' supplier

Splitting hairs, maybe, but I really wouldn't trust any Sales Rep who tells you that your LPG is coming from a refinery in Caernarfon: he either doesn't know what he's talking about or he's a fertilizer salesman and is just using big words to try to impress you!

There is no refinery in Caernarfon. Avanti (formerly Shell) have a bulk distribution facility in on the Cibyn Industrial Estate in Caernarfon. When it was owned by Shell, this facility was also used as a supply depot by Calor (Google Streetview is most revealing ), and I can't believe that situation has changed since Avanti took over.

Have you tried the UKPLG supplier search? If you put in your postcode, it will give you a list of suppliers to your area. Putting in a random central-Snowdonia postcode, this shows Calor, Avanti, Flogas and Cambrian Gas as possible suppliers.

Of the suppliers listed, Calor, Flogas and Avanti are considered "Major" players. Cambrian Gas (http://www.camgas.co.uk/) is an independent and I believe they have bulk distribution facilities in Anglesey, Aberystwyth, Wrexham and Chester. I would suggest that you read back through this thread, but to summarise, the general consensus seems to be that you tend to get the fairest service from independents, that Calor and Avanti are probably "OK" as far as they go and that Flogas really are best avoided if you have the option.

It is important to note, however, that the UKLPG search lists only suppliers who are members of UKLPG. There may be other suppliers or possibly a local Farmer's cooperative who may be able to supply you - for example, you might want to give the Wales Machinery Ring (http://www.walesmr.com) a call to see if they can help. If the machinery ring can help, or if you find any other suppliers in your area, please do report back here so that others can benefit.

Also, please do post back any prices or quotes you may receive in the process of your negotiations - this really is incredibly useful to others and is the biggest single weapon we have in the fight to make LPG pricing more open, fair and transparent.

HateLPG

This parliamentary discussion about the proposed energy bill (7th February 2013) is well worth a read. It is most revealing with regard to the "official" line on regulation of the Off Mains Energy supply market. Put simply, nothing will change until the OFT wake up to reality and say there's a problem in this area.

Unfortunately, the OFT also have a vested interest in keeping hold of "responsibility" for this key market - the last thing they want to happen in this age of vanishing quangos is to lose that important portfolio to Ofgem. If anyone can think of any other valid reasons why the OFT should suggest that a market where three companies between them control about 90% of the marketplace, I would be interested to hear them!

The phrase "Chicken and Egg" springs to mind!

johnnybebad2000

@hateLPG, can you tell me if using a smaller independent supplier whos prices are more likely to track the wholesale price, then would i need to own the tank?

I suppose what i am really wanting to know is what are the advantages/disadvantages of owning your own tank and the costs involved and if it is worth doing?

Cheers

J_B

HateLPG wrote: »

.......
Splitting hairs, maybe, but I really wouldn't trust any Sales Rep who tells you that your LPG is coming from a refineryin Caernarfon: he either doesn't know what he's talking about or he's a fertilizer salesman and is just using big words to try to impress you!.

Maybe I misheard him :cool:

Have you tried the UKPLG supplier search?
Yes, the printout is on the desk and is my 'reference point', but it only lists the 4 that you mentioned

Of the suppliers listed, Calor, Flogas and Avanti are considered "Major" players. Cambrian Gas (http://www.camgas.co.uk/) is an independent
but their price is 52p, whereas all the others are :-
48 - Calor
44 - Flogas
43 - Avanti

It is important to note, however, that the UKLPG search lists only suppliers who are members of UKLPG. There may be other suppliers or possibly a local Farmer's cooperative who may be able to supply you - for example, you might want to give the Wales Machinery Ring (http://www.walesmr.com) a call to see if they can help. If the machinery ring can help, or if you find any other suppliers in your area, please do report back here so that others can benefit.
Mole Valley quoted me 48.75p
I asked Affinity, who have promised to call back twice and haven't!
I spoke to SASTAK (the machinery ring local to my home) and they referred me to the guy from Calor who was 'working in association with them', but I didn't call him. I did ask the Snowdonia Calor rep and he couldn't better the 48p that his head office had quoted.
I will maybe try walesmr tomorrow.

Also, please do post back any prices or quotes you may receive in the process of your negotiations - this really is incredibly useful to others and is the biggest single weapon we have in the fight to make LPG pricing more open, fair and transparent.
Done above

HateLPG

johnnybebad2000 wrote: »

@hateLPG, can you tell me if using a smaller independent supplier whos prices are more likely to track the wholesale price, then would i need to own the tank?

I suppose what i am really wanting to know is what are the advantages/disadvantages of owning your own tank and the costs involved and if it is worth doing?

Cheers

Absolutely not!

It's actually very unusual to own your tank, and probably only worthwhile in a tiny number of situations, where you have a number of suppliers who are prepared to deliver to a customer-owned tank (many will not) and who are prepared to negotiate a sensible ad-hoc price as and when you require a delivery. There has been some discussion on and off about this on this thread, but first and foremost you would have to assess your local supply base and take it from there.

The distinction on this thread and elsewhere between "independent suppliers" and "major suppliers" is to some extent, a tag of convenience - they all have to operate under the same regulations and codes. Calor have about 50% of the market, Flogas (including MacGas) have about 30% of the market and Avanti have about 10% with the remaining 10% being shared between 30 of 40 other suppliers, often family run (all figures approximate). As a result Calor, Flogas and Avanti (the "majors") tend to have a more "corporate" and inflexible approach to pricing and have the financial strength to offer tempting loss-leaders and then push the price up disproportionately down the line. Price reductions are very definitely the exception with those three companies, even when the wholesale price falls significantly. Flogas, in particular, have a terrible reputation for operating this business model to the extreme, and have been strongly criticised by the OFT (more than once) for their pricing practices.

The independents generally seem to offer a price which is linked more directly to wholesale pricing and also tend to offer a more "personal" service - it is usually quite easy to talk to someone who understands the underlying business and has the authority to make decisions. They also tend to be more willing and able to resolve problems and to explain things rationally in the event of concerns or queries because you're not just speaking to a "customer service operative" in a call centre who is simply toeing the company line!

I think it is probably fair to say that when people first become LPG users, they go for the comfort and confidence of a well-known and "trusted" brand such as Calor. But as the more inquisitive and critical among us gain experience and understanding of the sordid business that is LPG supply (which probably defines most, if not all, readers of this thread) , the tendency seems to be a one-way path towards the independent suppliers.

HateLPG

J_B wrote: »

Cambrian Gas (http://www.camgas.co.uk/) is an independent
but their price is 52p, whereas all the others are :-
48 - Calor
44 - Flogas
43 - Avanti

Even at 2,500 litres p.a., 52ppl is definitely on the high side. I would expect a price of perhaps 47-50ppl based on that sort of usage, which makes the Calor quote look "about right". It would be worth going back to Camgas and explain that you've had offers of 43 and 44 ppl (perhaps don't mention the 48ppl offer from Calor ), that Cardif Gas are currently charging 46ppl (see here) and that the Listers/Malvern Hills February price is 45.85ppl (or 48.85ppl for less than 2,500 litres) - see here - and ask if they can make a better offer.

As far as the other prices go, it is well known that Flogas will offer tempting loss-leaders and then try to make up the loss in the latter part of the contract (plenty on this thread and elsewhere about this); In the days that Avanti were Shell, I would have said without hesitation that that was the deal to take, but I'm not so sure now. It's only gut-feeling, but I was with Shell at the time of the takeover and while I always found Shell fair and efficient to deal with, I did not get the same feeling of calm competence and control from Avanti. There is not, as yet, enough evidence to see whether their business model has substantially changed, but 43ppl is such a good price in the current market for a low-volume user that I would have to view it with a degree of skepticism. At the very least, you would need to read the contract in minute detail, keep an eye on the wholesale prices and make sure you stand your ground if you get hit with a large and unjustified price increase. But then again, that's good practice with any LPG supplier, no matter how much you trust them

johnnybebad2000

I contacted Avanti in anticipation of moving next month and they have come back with a quote for me. Doesnt seem too bad, would prefer fixed for a bit longer though as there is scope for the price to be near 60p at the end of the contract.



Gas (LPG)

Pence per litre fixed for 6 months

42.4 + 5% VAT

1 annual standing charge

This covers the vessel rental, maintenance and testing to enable us to provide you with a safe, efficient tank. This also provides you with an emergency breakdown cover service on hand 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

£60.00 + 5% VAT (per year per above ground vessel)

The easiest way to arrange your LPG deliveries is via our automatic ‘top up’ system. This will help ensure you get the right supply levels, giving you one less thing to worry about. Please indicate on the Supply Agreement if you wish to receive your deliveries via this system.


[FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]Contractual Terms[/FONT][/FONT]

The Exclusivity Period is a 2-year-term, the unit price quoted is guaranteed for the first six months thereafter there is a 5 pence per litre cap in any six month period.

johnnybebad2000

So just to give myself an idea of the cost of LPG in the new house V's the mains gas in my current home at this Avanti rate i have done a calcualtion.

Actual gas bill for Nov/Dec/Jan says i used mains gas = 8313.03Kwh

According to tinternet 7.08kwh is produced from 1tr of LPG

So 8313.03 divided by 7.08kwh = 1174 Ltrs of LPG

1174Ltrs of LPG would cost me £497.78 + VAT = £522

My mains gas cost me £381.92 so an extra £140 a quarter.

If i set up a DD for £150 per month to the supplier i rekon that should more than cover my usage for a year bearing in mind i wouldnt be using so much in summer.

Are my Calucaltions about right? I'm guessing the 7.08Kwh produced by 1 ltr lpg figure may differ depending on the efficiency of the boiler perhaps?

thozza

The Nottingham Energy Partnership website has a useful comparison table:

https://www.nottenergy.com/energy_cost_comparison

They quote the energy content (kWh per unit) of LPG as 6.66 whereas Calor quote the energy content of LPG at 7.1. The difference between the two is that Notts Energy are using the net calorific value, whereas Calor quote the gross calorific value.

Using the Notts Energy figures, mains gas is 5.05p per Kwh, LPG is 8.17p per Kwh, so mains gas is 38% cheaper based on LPG being 48.94p/l, both based on a boiler working at 90% efficiency.

Tinhat

Hi,

A quick question for the gurus - I am with Avanti Gas who have just raised their price by 2.4ppl from 47.9ppl to 50.5ppl. Five months ago it went up by 2.9ppl from 45ppl to 47.9ppl.

It would appear they have broken their max 5ppl rise within 6 months price promise so I am going to write to them giving 42 days notice to end my 2 year contract (which incidentally ends in September this year anyway).

What happens at the end of 42 days? Am I just free of the contract but still an Avanti customer, or do I have to find another supplier within 42 days?

I have enough gas in the tank to last until the summer and am thinking of signing up with Mole Valley Farmers (last summer they were charging 35.6ppl in July, 42.1ppl in August according to their sales rep).

Any advice would be appreciated.