Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

The Guardian carried an interesting piece in Monday's Data Blog, "The domestic energy use map of Britain". Sadly, I think the Off-Grid Methodology is questionable, but it's an interesting picture for all that!

Bucorvus

Hi - new poster.

Been with FloGas for many years. They have been OK so far. Last winter when supplies from Grangemouth had dropped 50% we ran out of LPG on a Sunday afternoon with a blizzard blowing; village was very difficult to get to because of ice and snow, some roads had been impassable to tankers for 3 weeks. But I should still have been keeping a closer eye on the gauge.

Rang FloGas; within 3 hours we had a husband and wife team in a Landrover turned up and put in 80 litres via cylinders. No extra charge other than normal gas rate as we were on a top up contract. Great service in such awful circumstances.

I am on a 2-yr contract (same terms as posted many times here) that runs out Nov 2012. Went to a contract as price in 2009 had gone up to 49p. Got discount to 12 mth fixed 39p on signing contract. Last year saw price rise to 43p. Just got letter announcing 7p rise to 50p. Use 1900-2400 litres per year depending on the winter.

The new price seems in line with others on this forum for my volume, but will certainly shop around in November. The price cap allowing cancellation of the contract seems like a must to try to avoid future 7p rises. Maybe the OFT will have forced FloGas to change their standard contracts to include price rise caps by November?

Still looking to install solar water heating and/or air source heat pumps to decrease future reliance on LPG.

LittleVermin

Bucorvus wrote: »

<snip> Last winter ....we ran out of LPG

Rang FloGas; within 3 hours we had a husband and wife team in a Landrover turned up and put in 80 litres via cylinders. .......Great service in such awful circumstances. <snip>

Welcome to the forum.

Great service from Flogas as you say!

I've reposted it because many people don't realise you can put LPG in a bulk tank from cylinders BUT only if the tank is empty. I've been told by a supplier that many times people turn up with cylinders and find there's still 5% or so in the "empty" tank and they can't do the job.

Sadly most posts about Flogas in this forum are not so positive.

bry54

we recently tried to swop LPG providers , Calor were offering us £150 off our first purchase and a free boiler service.

When they did the site survey they said they couldn't take the tank over because of it's proximity to overhead power lines ,but would be ok if the lines were under 1KV .

I contacted the National Grid who sent out an engineer who confirmed the lines were low voltage.

When I went back to Calor with this information they said it must be in writing .

Contacted National Grid who said it was against their policy to put it in writing ,but they were willing to speak to Calor on the phone to confirm this ,but it wasn't acceptable by Calor.

Looks like we're stuck with our provider who's charging 63p a litre .

HateLPG

IMPORTANT BREAKING NEWS

From the OFT Website:

OFT secures improvements for domestic bulk LPG customers

28/12 5 April 2012

The OFT has secured voluntary agreements from the major liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) suppliers to make changes to their domestic bulk customer contracts and improve transparency around switching and cancellation rights.

Avanti Gas Limited, BP Gas, Calor Gas Limited and its sister company Calor Gas Northern Ireland, and Flogas UK Limited and its sister company DCC Energy Limited (trading as Flogas Northern Ireland) have all agreed to make changes. This OFT action follows on from its 2011 Off-Grid Energy Market Study, which identified concerns that some suppliers may not be treating their domestic bulk LPG customers fairly.


Most people with a large supplier-owned LPG tank on their premises, rather than the smaller cylinders, will usually enter into contracts for the supply of domestic bulk LPG. These contracts typically begin with a two year exclusive supply arrangement during which the customer is tied to the supplier.

The improvements to the terms and conditions for the supply of LPG and other relevant customer information will mean that customers can better understand how prices can change during this two year period, their switching and cancellation rights, and the associated exit costs. In particular, the changes should ensure:

1. Improved rights to cancel or to switch supplier
   Consumers will be better protected with improved rights to cancel or to switch supplier when prices rise beyond a specified level. Greater transparency in price variation clauses will also allow people a better informed view of the likely cost of a contract. These changes have been agreed by Calor Gas Northern Ireland Limited, Flogas UK Limited and DCC Energy Limited. Avanti Gas, BP Gas and Calor Gas Limited already give their customers cancellation rights when prices rise beyond a specified threshold.
2. Exit charges are clearer to customers
   Where customers are switching to a new LPG supplier they will not bear the costs of the transfer of their tank to the new supplier, nor any direct costs associated with the removal of their tank in order for a new tank to be installed. All the parties have agreed changes to clarify their charges.
3. Customers understand their options after an initial lock-in period
   Some customers may wish to continue their existing contract with the flexibility to cancel or switch suppliers at any time. Others may wish to commit to a new contract that may remove this flexibility but may also offer improved terms. All parties have agreed to clarify these options when writing to customers about the end of the lock-in period, except for Calor Gas Northern Ireland for which the OFT did not identify the same concerns.

Mary Starks, Director in the OFT's Services, Infrastructure and Public Markets Group, said:

'150,000 people rely on LPG to heat their homes. They need to know where they stand when they are dealing with suppliers.

'The changes we have secured will mean customers are better informed of how prices can change and of their cancellation rights'.

---

Full details can be found on the OFT website at http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2012/28-12

This is really good news for all of us. The downside is that it's voluntary, not mandatory, but this sort of "softly softly" approach is usual. If the suppliers fail to comply with these arrangements, I'm quite sure the OFT will wield a "big Stick" where necessary, so don't forget to let the OFT know if ANY suppliers continue to err!

HateLPG

bry54 wrote: »

I contacted the National Grid who sent out an engineer who confirmed the lines were low voltage.

When I went back to Calor with this information they said it must be in writing .

Contacted National Grid who said it was against their policy to put it in writing ,but they were willing to speak to Calor on the phone to confirm this ,but it wasn't acceptable by Calor.

If it's not National Grid Policy to offer that confirmation in writing, you can be sure Calor are fully aware of that;

If Calor reasonably requested that written confirmation would be forthcoming, then someone at National Grid has got things wrong.

Either way, I suspect that someone is telling you porkies.

I would suggest that you write a letter to both companies outlining the situation and stating quite clearly that if you do not receive satisfactory resolution within 14 days, you will refer full details both to Ofgem and the OFT.

If someone at the National Grid has made a (genuine) mistake, then the written confirmation should be forthcoming easily enough. If someone at Calor is trying to obstruct the switch, they are likely to run scared if you threaten to report the matter to the OFT (see my earlier post regarding the voluntary agreement below). Remember, the supply companies have only entered into this voluntary agreement to avoid the OFT/Competition Commission coming down on them even harder, and Calor will not want to rock the boat. Especially when this is such shiny fresh news!

Good luck.

bry54

Thank you for your reply , I've just raised a complaint with Western Power threatening what you suggested.

I also contacted Calor and they said they had written to Western Power several times but haven't received a reply.

frankie

HateLPG wrote: »

IMPORTANT BREAKING NEWS

From the OFT Website:

OFT secures improvements for domestic bulk LPG customers

28/12 5 April 2012

The OFT has secured voluntary agreements from the major liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) suppliers to make changes to their domestic bulk customer contracts and improve transparency around switching and cancellation rights.

2. Exit charges are clearer to customers
Where customers are switching to a new LPG supplier they will not bear the costs of the transfer of their tank to the new supplier, nor any direct costs associated with the removal of their tank in order for a new tank to be installed. All the parties have agreed changes to clarify their charges.

---

Full details can be found on the OFT website at http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2012/28-12

This is really good news for all of us. The downside is that it's voluntary, not mandatory, but this sort of "softly softly" approach is usual. If the suppliers fail to comply with these arrangements, I'm quite sure the OFT will wield a "big Stick" where necessary, so don't forget to let the OFT know if ANY suppliers continue to err!

Clause 2 is particularly welcome. This has always been an issue with Calor's contract. (notwithstanding 'voluntary' code!)

LittleVermin

Price drops!

Cardiff Gas ............... ...47ppl ....- down 2.00p (from 49 last month)
Extra Fuel ....................50.51ppl - down 3.77p (from 54.28 last month)
LP Gas Wales Direct ..... 53.9ppl ..- down 1.00p (from 54.9 at 03.03.12)
Carver .........................54.0ppl ..- down 1.90p (from 55.9 at 03.03.12)

...... so I am sure we will soon see the majors reversing some of their recent price rises.

Can anyone who is supplied by an independent find out their current price to add to the list, please? And also tell us the previous price.
..

HateLPG

I have just been reading through some of the detail on the OFT ruling (see my earlier post, here). In particular, the section on Termination/cancellation rights will be of immediate interest to many, especially to Flogas customers.

Termination/cancellation rights

The OFT has sought improvements in termination clauses in order to clarify, or to better balance, the rights of suppliers and customers

Agreements to amend price variation clauses

In particular, the OFT secured amendments to the contracts of Calor Gas Northern Ireland, Flogas UK and DCC Energy trading as Flogas Northern Ireland to allow customers to cancel their agreement in the event of a price increase beyond a specified threshold. Previously, these suppliers' contracts did not allow such cancellation rights.

Calor Gas Northern Ireland, Flogas UK and DCC Energy have all signed undertakings to change the price variation terms in their future new contracts and to offer customers on existing contracts the same benefits as new customers when the price goes up beyond a specified threshold. The undertakings are published on the Competition Commission website. These companies will also, in future, publish their terms and conditions on their websites.

This is an extract from the OFT findings and the agreements undertaken by the suppliers which can be found here. The key point is that this protection comes in to force for ALL customers with immediate effect.

As of the date that the companies entered into the agreements with the OFT (which I suspect will effectively be today, 5th April 2012), they are all bound by the requirement to give all their customers (new AND existing) a cancellation option in the event of any price increase beyond a specified threshold. I have no idea what Flogas are now offering in terms of a "cancellation" option for existing customers, but it would be great if some Flogas customers could find out and report back here. If it has not been set at a "reasonable" level, there may still be scope to fire this matter back to the OFT.