Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

HateLPG

Milltir wrote: »

UKLPG's position to me seems a bit inconsistent between bulk domestic tanks (which sit there and do nothing but typically need 3m separation distance) and autogas vehicles (which can hurtle around at 70 mph+). I'd be intrigued to know what regulations around safety/separation distances apply to LPG in motor vehicles.

I believe the 3m separation is to do with air-flow and "pooling". Remember, LPG is (rather nastily) a bit heavier than air and if there is even a slow leak from your tank, and the area around it is "dead" air, the LPG can sink to the ground and wait quietly for a nice tasty source of ignition to come along. If your LPG cylinder is hurtling along at 70 mph, there's not much chance any such pooling occurring ;-)

Harriotte

Hi guys, just foud these e-petitions about LPG and they sadly don't have anywhere near enough signatures to get the MPs to discuss it in parliament, so please get signing and post on facebook etc. http:// epetitions.direct.gov.uk /search?q=LPG

I've had to put spaces in the link as I'm not allowed to post links i'm afraid. If someone else could make it into a clicky, that would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

LittleVermin

Harriotte wrote: »

<snip> please get signing <snip.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/14598

213 signed so far - some way to go! With about 170,000* households using LPG we need a good proportion of LPG users to sign up. This petition has been mentioned on the forum before (here, here and here) so maybe there won't be too many extra signers as a result of Harriotte's post.

Meanwhile voisin's post (here) has 109 thanks - but no further action from MSE. But please add your thanks if you haven't already.

I wonder if a response to the Office For Fair Trading's latest survey - re "remote communities" - might do some good - see here. By April 20.

And for a specific problem then an email to Sharon Dias at OFT is called for. Let's make her - and the OFT - aware of the total 'wild west' of LPG pricing. Email [EMAIL="sharon.dias&#64;oft.gov.uk"]sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]


*Well, 170k is one figure I've seen.
..

[Deleted User]

Hello,

Received a letter from Calor today notifiying me of another price rise with effect from 2nd April 2012 to 59.40p plus VAT. Having not bought any LPG for nearly a year I can't remember what the pre increase price was.

FYI - we are still under contract until Aug 2012 and located in central Scotland.

Hope this information is useful.

Cheers

JJ

HateLPG

As all readers of this thread should now be aware, wholesale LPG prices have increased enormously over the past couple of months [see Graphs of Wholesale Pricing]. Hopefully, this is just a short-term anomoly due to weak winter demand and uncertainty of supply given the volatile situation in the Middle East.

This is, perhaps, little consolation, as history shows that (by and large) the only effect that changes in wholesale pricing seem to have on the delivered price is upwards, with falls in wholesale price rarely (if ever) being passed on to consumers by the vast majority of suppliers. I think, however, there is much that can be done to mitigate this risk (for readers of this thread at least).
Firstly, the suppliers clearly rely on consumer ignorance when imposing price rises. Finding reliable wholesale pricing data is notoriously difficult for the humble end-user, and suppliers frequently use vague and inappropriate justifications for price increases such as "due to increases in the price of crude oil" (a useful, but not wholly reliable index) or worse still, the utterly-meaningless "as energy prices have risen sharply". As we now have sight of wholesale LPG pricing data, we are in a position to understand price rises and to challenge them where appropriate.

Secondly, suppliers rely heavily on consumer ignorance of the retail "market price". Again, readers of this forum should by now have a pretty good grasp on what a "fair" price should be for a given usage level from the various posts made here. If nothing else, the Extra Fuel price (published on their website and currently standing at 54.28ppl), generally seems to track wholesale pricing fairly well and is, I think, a resonable indicator of market price for a low to mid level (<= 2500l per year) user. This is especially useful to know in the current climate.

Thirdly, you may or may not have the option to terminate your contract in the event of significant price rises. Excercise this option wisely! In my case, I have the right to terminate my contract should the price rise exceed 3ppl in any six month period. All very well and good, and I am now in a position where I could quite legally walk away from my existing contract. But this is not necessarily very helpful in a real-world situation: I believe it is unlikely that I could find alternative supplier who would make it worth my while going through all the hassle of switching (which doesn't mean to say, of course, that I'm not looking around!).

I will be quite clear here: I do not begrudge the supplier the right to make a fair profit in supplying me, but at the same time, I do object to being taken for a ride. I use somewhere between 5000 and 6000 litres per year and have a 2000 litre underground tank, which means that as a bare minimum, I will have four deliveries a year, more usually five or six. I am about 40 miles from the depot that supplies me (which is towards the far reaches of its delivery area). If my supplier was still offering me the price I was paying in January, (leaving aside the "maintenance charges") he would be making the grand total of about £60* per year to cover delivery, administration costs and profit. Clearly, that is just not sustainable, and so I believe that the recent (huge) cost increases are indeed fair and warranted in my specific case.

This does not mean that I am just going to lie down and take what my supplier has dished out without question. I have put my supplier on notice that I am fully aware of what the wholesale market is doing and that I therefore consider their recent increases justified. I have also "reminded" them that the OFT is looking carefully at LPG contracts and pricing as an ongoing excercise and that I will therefore be expecting any sharp falls in wholesale price to be passed on to me equally swiftly {see also LittleVermin's post]. Of course, if you are one of the unfortunates who was already paying a vastly inflated price for supply, you could take a similar approach to challenge and refute any price rise head on. It would probably fall on deaf ears with your supplier, but it would at least provide you with a much-strengthened case to report to Sharon Dias at the OFT ([EMAIL="sharon.dias&#64;oft.gsi.gov.uk"]sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]) once you are in receipt of a letter from your supplier denying your challenge to their charges in the face of excessively high pricing!

(* For the less mathematically inclined, it is now quite easy to work out how much you are paying towards delivery, administration and profit - simply subtract the wholesale price (ppl) as shown on the graph from your contract price and multiply the resulting figure by your annual usage (in litres). Remember, the further you are from the depot, the greater is the cost of delivery (not just in mileage, but in terms of the driver's time and number of possibe daily deliveries etc), so it would help your cause if you can elicit from your driver (or supplier) where your delivery depot is actually located.)

danlojo

Just had a letter from Calor upping ours to 51.5ppl which by the looks of it is still a good deal. In contract with them until Aug 2012.

Milltir

HateLPG wrote: »

I believe the 3m separation is to do with air-flow and "pooling". Remember, LPG is (rather nastily) a bit heavier than air and if there is even a slow leak from your tank, and the area around it is "dead" air, the LPG can sink to the ground and wait quietly for a nice tasty source of ignition to come along. If your LPG cylinder is hurtling along at 70 mph, there's not much chance any such pooling occurring ;-)

Very good point - but if the vehicle suddenly changes speed from 70 mph to 0 mph? And what about vehicles parked in garages? No ventilation there...

Found the following in an HSE leaflet Safe working with LPG-fuelled Motor Vehicles - please note this only relates to "hot work" (e.g. welding) on a vehicle:
"Where heat is applied to a vehicle, eg during welding, burning, infra-red heating or other ‘hot work’: maintain a minimum clearance of 1 m between the area to be heated and the LPG fuel tank or fuel lines; provide a heat-resistant shield or empty or gas-free the affected parts of the LPG system where this clearance cannot be achieved."

Does anybody know whether anyone has done any comparative studies of the likelihood and consequence of a release from domestic bulk installations vs vehicles?

nik0568

Do many of you use a bulk oil buying scheme ? There seem to be quite a few around - Oxford, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire, Bucks, etc. Run by the Rural Community Councils (Charities). Worth a look.

LittleVermin

nik0568 wrote: »

Do many of you use a bulk oil buying scheme ? There seem to be quite a few around - Oxford, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire, Bucks, etc. Run by the Rural Community Councils (Charities). Worth a look.

Welcome to the forum.

There seem to be very few bulk LPG buying groups: maybe people who are in one can tell us? In the past only mbday has reported a successful group (here).

Do you know if any of the RCCs are trying to organise bulk buying for LPG? Since nearly all LPG users rent their tanks and are tied into 2-yr exclusivity contracts it's much harder setting up a buying consortium!

PS Please post your info in the heating oil thread - Cheaper Oil for Fuel? - (here).

PPS I've just looked at the RCC website (for Leics & Rutland) and found a pdf about off-grid energy (here) which has had Calor's input - and includes this:

The key to the efficient and inexpensive use of energy is to:
• Reduce the number of kilowatt hours used
• Reduce the cost per kilowatt hour

Indeed! But how to reduce the cost per kilowatt hour of LPG? Hmm, switch supplier - away from Calor and the other majors? But it doesn't say this. Of course.

The pdf also includes this:

LPG is sold at a standard price in each zone of the country.

Ho Ho Ho! What a porkie!

nik0568

Thanks. Will repost. I know Oxford RCC is successful & many others are following successfully. Notts RCC - now RCAN - is relatively new.