Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

LittleVermin

craigcall wrote: »

<snip>

LPG Homeheat who have quoted 44ppl (I think inc VAT)

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Yes, the price will include VAT (that's a USP of Northern Energy - see here*. LPG Homeheat is a part of Northern Energy**). As VAT on LPG is 5% and they've quoted 44ppl inclusive you'll be paying just over 2ppl less pre VAT. Good price!

But here's a bit of a warning in a post by ancillotti.

*:


Turn up the Heat with Northern Energy!

• We will pay the VAT on all your fuel deliveries.

** from http://www.lpghomeheat.co.uk/ :


LPG Homeheat is part of the Northern Energy group, and all our family values run deep through the business – reliability, affordability, as well as excellent customer service.
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KeenMover

Hi, I am new first request. Looking at the reports on Calor bulk prices I note they are all 2008. It is now 2012 any one got any update information please. I am looking at buying a bungalow which has only ec7 heating. Prefer gas but no mains gas. Would be grateful for info as web sites offer £500.00 off but off what???? trying to get price per ltr appearing impossible can any one help???

TheGoodKing

LittleVermin wrote: »

Make sure you also get told how much tank rental would be, and maximum rate of rise. Then start haggling! (I would expect Calor would be surprised if you accepted their initial offer - with its generous contribution to their bottom line).

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Just wondering if anyone has had any success haggling with Calor when been asked to sign a new contract - or got them to give the same offer they give to new customers. Just got to the end of a contract and the offer is at 56.4 pence per litre plus VAT and standing charge of 16.9p per day. Is that more/less than others?

Cheers.

LittleVermin

KeenMover wrote: »

Hi, I am new first request. Looking at the reports on Calor bulk prices I note they are all 2008. It is now 2012 any one got any update information please. I am looking at buying a bungalow which has only ec7 heating. Prefer gas but no mains gas. Would be grateful for info as web sites offer £500.00 off but off what???? trying to get price per ltr appearing impossible can any one help???

Hi KeenMover and welcome to the forum.

You write that the bungalow has Economy7 and you'd like gas but can't get mains gas. You don't say how old the storage heaters are (modern ones are massively better than old ones - see threads on MSE!) or whether you'll be at home during the day. Anyway, in your shoes, I'd go through some sort of process as outlined below:

1. Read my earlier post (here) with links to threads about off-grid energy choices.
2. Look at Notts Energy costs comparison (here) (but remember these don't include installation or maintenance).
3. If you decide to go for LPG put your postcode into the UKLPG search. There may be other suppliers who are not UKLPG members, and there may be other ways to buy LPG (e.g. through a farmers' co-op or even a local buying group). You should find you have more options than just Calor! - even if it has 50% of the market.
4. Look at the garden and think about where an LPG tank might go (using info from Calor about siting surface (here) and underground (here) tanks - these follow the UKLPG codes of practice, so should make switching easier later). Some of us would avoid having an underground tank as some suppliers won't accept ones installed by other suppliers - so making switching harder. You can buy UKLPG's Codes of Practice (COP01/2 is most relevant)- but at twenty-four quid for the basic one most of us have to trust that installations are compliant (but there are several posts in this thread from people who discover their tanks are NOT compliant, usually when they want to switch - and so have problems).
5.Get quotes from possible suppliers - initial price & price guaranteed until & maximum rate of price rise & tank rental (and put all the info on a chart!). All suppliers must give quotes over the phone (but, of course, these will be subject to a site visit).
6. Come back here with all this info and ask for comments!
7. You'll find several posts on this thread suggesting you avoid one major supplier. And several posts recommending using independent suppliers.

Hope this helps! It may seem a lot of effort when you are just considering buying this bungalow but at least you'll be going in with your eyes wide open. And, of course, the info you dig out should be applicable for other off-grid properties you look at. I'd ask any seller about their heating costs: of course these depend on life style but using the Notts Energy figures (adjusted for local prices) should give you some idea of potential running costs.

BTW 1. If you click on "Search this Thread" just above the posts and put in "Calor" you will get quite a few Calor prices. There's even a post by HateLPG (here) with all the 2010 prices mentioned on this forum, including several from Calor. But these prices are not relevant to 2012! {Lots more useful posts by HateLPG - much of this one is relevant to you.}
2. Calor's "£500 towards your switch to Calor LPG" - you'll need to put in a concrete base for the tank, pipework to a new LPG boiler and the boiler itself (and get the installation done by a LPG-specialist Gas Safe contractor). ... You need to read the T&Cs - which include the worrying statement that this is for a "three-year Commercial Supply Agreement". Domestic bulk LPG supply was the focus of a Competition Commission survey - with effect from April 2009 - and info is here (maximum length of contract for domestic supply two years). So I am surprised by Calor's reference to a three year commercial supply.
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danlojo

Quick question:

Tank is currently at 40% full.

Contract ends Aug 2012 with Calor so we can start haggling around Feb / March.

Currently in a deal of 47.5ppl and 24.57p standing charge

Is it worth filling up now or will the 'haggle' not get us any cheaper?

Thanks!

Mbday

My industry sources tell me that LPG suppliers are coming under the cosh from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) regarding tank compliance. This may be the reason for October's high level talks between the industry and the HSE (see previous posts), and is possibly also connected to the recent OFT report which highlighted tank compliance as a continuing barrier to consumer switching.

Apparently the HSE has told the industry it needs to demonstrate that it has a programme in place to bring tanks up to the required regulations. I believe 2013 has been mooted as a key date (which is also when the industry has to deal with pipework replacement, but that's another story). This throws up a number of issues such as: who will pay for the work (obviously we will, either directly or through increased prices); what it will mean for competition; and why the industry has been allowed to continue to site tanks against industry regulations (and continue to fill them knowing them to be non-compliant)! The industry and other official bodies (like the Department of Energy) will try to claim that "building works", "vegetation growth" or other problems caused by consumers, are the main reason for tank non compliance. In my own neighbourhood, I know this is not the case. Bear in mind the relevant regulations have not really changed for many years. And in any event, what have we all be paying tank rental charges for if not to ensure the safe supply of our gas? For obvious reasons, this activity doesn't appear to be receiving much publicity (although I am pretty certain that what my sources say is true). If I am right, then I suspect many many LPG users will be affected by this and it will be interesting to see in the coming months how many users of this forum "suddenly" find their supplier advises their tank is non compliant.

HateLPG wrote: »

Firstly, remember that UKLPG are the Trade Body of the entire UK LPG industry (commercial, domestic, automotive, cylinder, infrastructure etc) and this meeting may have nothing to do with domestic bulk LPG per se - there have been a few alarming and very serious industrial LPG incidents recently, and those may have been the reason for and focus of discussions.

However, this could also be related to matters of Domestic Bulk supply. Maybe I'm just taking a "glass half empty" view, but if matters of Domestic Bulk supply are on the agenda, I fear this may not be such good news.

There are a number of key issues to be aware of here. Firstly, as I understand things, there are basically two sets of rules governing Tank Siting:

1. The HSE rules, which are inviolable and absolute;
2. The UKLPG codes of Practice which are written by UKLPG. These, effectively, are the rules that come into play when determining whether or not a tank is acceptably sited. My understanding is that HSE defer to UKLPG as the "acknowledged experts" in the field, but the HSE have no direct involvement in the development or implementation of these codes of practice

[See the response I received from the HSE in March this year for clarification - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42205844&postcount=844]

Secondly, the recent OFT study into Off-Mains Energy recognised in its report that there was something of an issue with tank-siting, but was totally equivocal in it's response, throwing responsibility back at the suppliers and HSE (quoted here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=47874135&postcount=1100). Personally, I suspect that this meeting did indeed have a lot to do with the so-called recommendations of the OFT Off-Mains Enery Study report.

Thirdly, going by some of the posts here (and from information gleaned from elsewhere), there do seem to be increasing issues with "tank siting". Now this could be no more than the effect of the 2009 Competition Commission Orders increasing the number of people switching and that as part of the switching process and associated surveys, previously un-recognised issues are being identified. But this does not answer why existing suppliers will then happily continue to supply without question. I don't think that it is beyond the bounds of probability that the UK LPG industry has latched on to this whole vague "codes of practice" and "negotiate with existing and potential suppliers" situation as a rather neat and effective way of effectively reducing competition and mitigating the effects of the CC orders. Purely by way of illustration, if you take this idea to its logical conclusion and suppose that there is a "gentlemen's agreement" between all UK LPG suppliers to the effect that none of them will take business from another and that they will always decline to supply on the basis of "tank siting issues", they will then be in a position to charge pretty much whatever they wish and they all win. This is obviously an extreme example, and I'm not for one second saying that all LPG suppliers have entered into such an agreement, but I think it illustrates the general principle quite clearly.

Now, remember, that all UKLPG members are bound by the UKLPG codes of practice (it is interesting to note that a number of the smaller LPG suppliers are actually questioning the worth of being members of UKLPG, but that's another story). At this point, it might be useful to consider who UKLPG actually are. As you would expect, the industry is strongly represented on the board of UKLPG (it is their Trade Association, after all):

Mr P. Ardis
Also a Director of (amongst others):
CAM GAS (TAN LAN) LIMITED,
CAMBRIAN GAS LIMITED,
L.P. GAS WALES DIRECT LIMITED

Mr D. Asquith
Also a Director of
COUNTRYWIDE LPGAS LIMITED

Ms N.J. Brown

Mr J.H. Cubbon
Also a Director of (amongst others):
DCC ENERGY UK LIMITED
FLOGAS DIRECT LIMITED
FLOGAS UK LIMITED

Mr S. Rennie
Also a Director of (amongst others):
BUDGET GAS LIMITED
CALOR GAS LIMITED
CALOR GROUP LIMITED

Mr R.G. Smith

Mr P.D. Turley
Also a Director of (amongst others):
SHELL GAS LIMITED
(It is not known what (if any) changes have ocurred in respect of this directorship following the sale of Shell's LPG operations and associated rebranding)

Mr J.I. Waghorn

Mr S. Walmsley

Mr M.H. Welsh
also director of:
Also a Director of
BP LPG UK LIMITED
BP OIL UK LIMITED

From this, I think it is pretty clear where the strength and power of UKLPG lies and exactly which suppliers will be top of their list of priorities when developing policy.

My expectation would be that any engagement with HSE would be most likely (in general terms) to go one of two ways. Either:

1. The HSE will encourage UKLPG to make the Codes of Practice more "absolute", and require both existing and incoming suppliers to ensure that all tanks comply with current codes of conduct, with remedial work quite likely being the responsibility of the customer;
2. They will reach agreement that more or less formalises the "status quo", and allows existing suppliers to "take a view" on installations that they currently supply. This would perhaps have a more formal set of rules, for example: a) that the existing supplier can continue to supply provided that the installation was compliant with the regulations and codes of practice in force at time of installation (unless it is believed that the current installation poses extreme risk to property and/or life); b) On transfer, the new supplier must ensure and confirm that all installations are compliant to current codes of practice at the time that supply commences .

Clearly, option 1. would not be the preferred option of UKLPG as it would inevitably drive a significant number of consumers away from LPG altogether. So my call is that we can probably expect something more in line with option 2. The practical upshot of which would be that we would have (in effect) exactly the same situation as we have at present, but instead of the vague suggestions proposed by the OFT, there would be a "set of rules" laid down to formalise things.

LittleVermin

1. Whatgas has changed the url of its weekly autogas price - it's now at http://www.whatgas.com/petrol-prices/lpg-prices.html This runs from mid-2005.

2. The monthly ANSI bulk LPG price - converted to ppl - is here. This runs from Jan 2005.

3. North Sea Propane (~LPG) against Brent Crude, both in dollars/tonne (from the OFT off-grid report) is here. This runs from June 2006 to August 2011.

All useful info for haggling!

(Thanks to HateLPG for the ANSI-derived chart).
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LittleVermin

Current prices from five mainland companies which post their bulk LPG prices on the web:

Carver Gases:
http://www.carvergases.co.uk/ - 49.6ppl

Extra Fuel:
http://www.extrafuel.co.uk - 49.75ppl

Cardiff Gas:
http://cardiffgas.wordpress.com/about/ - 43ppl

LP Gas Wales Direct:
http://www.lpgaswalesdirect.co.uk - 50.9ppl

AND

Lister Gases:
http://www.listergases.co.uk - 50ppl ("less any discount for higher quantity users"). Lister Gases haven't changed their posted price for several months, and someone reported a phone quote of 45ppl recently so maybe Listers shouldn't be on this list at all.

Anyone know other companies with transparent pricing?

It's worth mentioning that if you are haggling with a major supplier over prices and mention the price from one of these companies (and other small independents who don't post prices) that the major will often beat the independent's price - offering a low (maybe even very low!) initial price, knowing that they can get their money back (and more!) over the two year contract. We've had this posted on the forum, and I've heard it from the industry. Listers makes a point on its website (here) that its prices go up and down, and you can see Extra Fuel's price on the chart here.
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The_Hornet

Just to add to the data, I have contacted my supplier, Countrywide, and their current price is 43ppl.

Looking back on previous deliveries I paid 47.7ppl in Sept 2011 and 43ppl in March 2011. This is the first time I have had the price go DOWN! This is for delivery in Herefordshire. Using the very useful Extrafuel ANSI chart (thanks for that) I have calculated the premium I have paid over this figure for the last few years worth of deliveries:

Oct 2007 - 32% (When I started)
Jan 2008 - 2% (!!! - Still on the initial contract price)
May 2008 - 20%
Jan 2009 - 167% (!!! - But this coincided with a sudden dramatic fall in ANSI price after a period of high prices)
Dec 2010 - 22%
Mar 2011 - 43%
Sep 2011 - 59%
Jan 2012 - 43%

There is a gap between Jan 2009 & Dec 2010 where I have lost the invoice. So all in all their current quoted price of 43ppl seems not unreasonable. Despite some negative comments here I have always found Countrywide a reliable and not unreasonable supplier and I have stuck with them ever since my original 2yr contract expired at the end of 2009. For completness I have always paid £12.50p + VAT a quarter for tank rental (13.7p per day) for an underground tank supplied by Countrywide.

I'm happy to be in the envious position of having no contract so enabling me to shop around at will. :j

markmorgan

I've recently moved into a house with a LPG gas tank and I really wish I'd read all of this thread first! I signed up with FloGas and am being charged 46ppl exc VAT at the moment.

My main question is does anyone know where I can find average usage stats. At my old house I was on mains gas and my monthly - yearly averaged - direct debit was around £30pm for central heating and a cooker. Just had my third top-up from FloGas - the first fill-up obviously being an anomally as the previous owner had run the tank down - and I appear to be burning through 13 litres of gas per day for the last couple of months! That's nigh on £190 per month! That can't be normal surely? Especially as this is a mild winter so far. We only have gas central heating and there is no gas fire or gas cooker.

By the way, I live in a three bed bungalow in Worcestershire. The tank is above ground and has a FloGas label which is clearly stuck over one from a previous supplier.