Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

longforgotten

Why not try another supplier, not Calor, and see if they would take her on.

It's worth a try. Perhaps another supplier would be more helpful with advice about the regs and getting work done.

rendor

Just a comment about tank siting etc. We moved to our address four years ago and have an underground bulk tank in the back garden. We continued with Flogas as our suppliers for a couple of years until we tired of the incessant price rises. So when the opportunity came to renew we took it. Contacted Countrywide who asked if we had any sheds/overhanging trees etc less than a certain distance from the tank. When told that we had - the previous owners must have erected the shed that is in the garden - Countrywide said that they wouldn't touch us as this breached 'regulations'.
We were mystified as Flogas had been delivering for years and nobody had ever said anything to us about it. Even when the Flogas engineers came on one of their trips to check out the tank etc no mention was made of it.
Having been worn down by trying to get any sense out of Flogas over pricing we weren't going to try to quibble about delivering to a now 'illegally' sited tank.
All was not lost. Contacted Lister Gases. They sent a Rep out for a chat (Countrywide just had a chat on the phone). I explained about the shed and distance from the tank. The Rep was not in the least worried and said that of Flogas had been happy to deliver then so would they be.
Have found Listers a refreshing change from Flogas. Pleasant to deal with and honest with their pricing - which they put on the front of their website.
So it may be worth trying smaller suppliers.

[Deleted User]

longforgotten wrote: »

Why not try another supplier, not Calor, and see if they would take her on.

It's worth a try. Perhaps another supplier would be more helpful with advice about the regs and getting work done.

I'm not to bothered now as no longer use LPG for heating/DHW only the hob till it runs out but this was discussed with Calor before we decided to bin them.

I bring it up because it is a scam. I pay the best part of £80 quid a year in standing charges for tank maintenance etc. Although we only moved here a couple of years ago Calor have been charging for this standing charge for 25 years and done sod all to keep the tank up to date.

1) Calor love to tell you the tank is sited illegally even though they put it there... Nothing done about this even though there is plenty space to move it...

2) The underground pipework should be changed to plastic. Promised the best part of two years ago and nothing done...

4) I discovered a minor leak on the tank which appeared to be long term and not one of the frequent deliveries brought this to my attention or arranged repair. Had to do this myself last Christmas Day!!! Nice wee refund of gas though...

3) Telemetry. This has been done as it must pay for itself! Pointless now as topups are suspended...

Cheers all.

Mbday

Following my rant yesterday, has anyone else picked up on this information, posted on 31 Oct on UKLPG (Industry Association) website:

UKLPG Chief Executive meets HSE Chair & HSE Chief Executive
Rob Shuttleworth, Chief Executive at UKLPG will meet Judith Hackett, Chair and Geoffrey Podger Chief Executive of the HSE for historic meeting.
"Representatives from UKLPG will meet with senior Health and Safety Executive staff on November 7th. The meeting has been arranged to further develop the relationship between UKLPG and members with the HSE and will provide the opportunity to discuss key regulatory issues which affect the LPG industry. Members of both gas and equipment companies will be attending the meeting to represent the wider membership, Henry Cubbon CEO of Flogas and Nikki Brown of Cavagna Group UK.

Rob Shuttleworth, CEO of UKLPG said "This is an important meeting for the LPG industry and we are delighted that we are able to meet two such distinguished and well respected figures from the HSE."

Doubt if the key question was asked as to why Flogas will supply gas to "illegal" tanks one day (at a price!) but not the next! Haven't seen any feedback on the meeting as yet.

mbday wrote: »

I can't emphasise enough how right Hate LPG is. I have been trying to help an elderly neighbour who wanted to join my LPG buying group back in 2010 (see previous posts). Calor advised her that her tank didn't conform to Health and Safety regs, so she couldn't join the group. Herr supplier Flogas, however, has continued to supply her. Things came to a head recently when she was quoted 69p per litre by Flogas to fill her tank. She is out of contract and doesn't want to sigh up again for all the reasons everyone is aware of. I wrote to Henry Cubbon (MD Flogas) highlighting concerns about her tank and the price she is being quoted. At the time I didn't reveal her details as she was concerned that Flogas might refuse to continue to supply her. I copied my letter to our local MP, as well as Charles Hendry (Energy minister) and the OFT. The OFT responded with the typically weak words we have come to expect. To date, I have had nothing back from the MP or Charles Hendry. Flogas put a customer service manager on the case and after some toing and froing we agreed that a technician would need to come out and advise about options (including the possiblity of moving to cylinders - at about twice the price of bulk LPG!). I revealed my neighbours details and gave dates and times when we would both be available to meet the technician. Two days later, she received a letter from Flogas advising her that her tank didn't conform to the regulations. The strong implication was that they wouldn't deliver to her anymore unless she arranged for the necessary work to be carried out. I leave you to draw your own conclusions about the timing of this. I will only add that she had had a delivery from Flogas about 2 weeks earlier, when no mention was made of the tank problems. I immediately fired off a letter to the OFT, MPs, etc. The OFT responded again, basically saying it all sounded like a Health and Safety issue and not part of their remit. I have sent off another reply saying that if suppliers are hiking prices to those customers who cannot change suppliers, because of Health and Safety issues with their tanks, then they (the OFT) should definitely be concerned about this. I await a response, but won't hold my breath. If, as it seems, there are a significant number of tanks which don't conform to current regs (I've been told, unofficially, it could be as high as 30% of tanks - maybe 50,000 households) what would happen if Health and Safety did it's job and forced suppliers to stop deliveries to all those households whose tanks don't comply? What would the OFT's/Charles Hendry's/the govenment's position be then, I wonder? I will update when I know more, but I urge all of you to follow hate LPG's advise and COMPLAIN NOW!

HateLPG

mbday wrote: »

...posted on 31 Oct on UKLPG (Industry Association) website:

UKLPG Chief Executive meets HSE Chair & HSE Chief Executive
Rob Shuttleworth, Chief Executive at UKLPG will meet Judith Hackett, Chair and Geoffrey Podger Chief Executive of the HSE for historic meeting.

"Representatives from UKLPG will meet with senior Health and Safety Executive staff on November 7th. The meeting has been arranged to further develop the relationship between UKLPG and members with the HSE and will provide the opportunity to discuss key regulatory issues which affect the LPG industry. Members of both gas and equipment companies will be attending the meeting to represent the wider membership, Henry Cubbon CEO of Flogas and Nikki Brown of Cavagna Group UK.

Firstly, remember that UKLPG are the Trade Body of the entire UK LPG industry (commercial, domestic, automotive, cylinder, infrastructure etc) and this meeting may have nothing to do with domestic bulk LPG per se - there have been a few alarming and very serious industrial LPG incidents recently, and those may have been the reason for and focus of discussions.

However, this could also be related to matters of Domestic Bulk supply. Maybe I'm just taking a "glass half empty" view, but if matters of Domestic Bulk supply are on the agenda, I fear this may not be such good news.

There are a number of key issues to be aware of here. Firstly, as I understand things, there are basically two sets of rules governing Tank Siting:

1. The HSE rules, which are inviolable and absolute;
2. The UKLPG codes of Practice which are written by UKLPG. These, effectively, are the rules that come into play when determining whether or not a tank is acceptably sited. My understanding is that HSE defer to UKLPG as the "acknowledged experts" in the field, but the HSE have no direct involvement in the development or implementation of these codes of practice

[See the response I received from the HSE in March this year for clarification - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42205844&postcount=844]

Secondly, the recent OFT study into Off-Mains Energy recognised in its report that there was something of an issue with tank-siting, but was totally equivocal in it's response, throwing responsibility back at the suppliers and HSE (quoted here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=47874135&postcount=1100). Personally, I suspect that this meeting did indeed have a lot to do with the so-called recommendations of the OFT Off-Mains Enery Study report.

Thirdly, going by some of the posts here (and from information gleaned from elsewhere), there do seem to be increasing issues with "tank siting". Now this could be no more than the effect of the 2009 Competition Commission Orders increasing the number of people switching and that as part of the switching process and associated surveys, previously un-recognised issues are being identified. But this does not answer why existing suppliers will then happily continue to supply without question. I don't think that it is beyond the bounds of probability that the UK LPG industry has latched on to this whole vague "codes of practice" and "negotiate with existing and potential suppliers" situation as a rather neat and effective way of effectively reducing competition and mitigating the effects of the CC orders. Purely by way of illustration, if you take this idea to its logical conclusion and suppose that there is a "gentlemen's agreement" between all UK LPG suppliers to the effect that none of them will take business from another and that they will always decline to supply on the basis of "tank siting issues", they will then be in a position to charge pretty much whatever they wish and they all win. This is obviously an extreme example, and I'm not for one second saying that all LPG suppliers have entered into such an agreement, but I think it illustrates the general principle quite clearly.

Now, remember, that all UKLPG members are bound by the UKLPG codes of practice (it is interesting to note that a number of the smaller LPG suppliers are actually questioning the worth of being members of UKLPG, but that's another story). At this point, it might be useful to consider who UKLPG actually are. As you would expect, the industry is strongly represented on the board of UKLPG (it is their Trade Association, after all):

Mr P. Ardis
Also a Director of (amongst others):
CAM GAS (TAN LAN) LIMITED,
CAMBRIAN GAS LIMITED,
L.P. GAS WALES DIRECT LIMITED

Mr D. Asquith
Also a Director of
COUNTRYWIDE LPGAS LIMITED

Ms N.J. Brown

Mr J.H. Cubbon
Also a Director of (amongst others):
DCC ENERGY UK LIMITED
FLOGAS DIRECT LIMITED
FLOGAS UK LIMITED

Mr S. Rennie
Also a Director of (amongst others):
BUDGET GAS LIMITED
CALOR GAS LIMITED
CALOR GROUP LIMITED

Mr R.G. Smith

Mr P.D. Turley
Also a Director of (amongst others):
SHELL GAS LIMITED
(It is not known what (if any) changes have ocurred in respect of this directorship following the sale of Shell's LPG operations and associated rebranding)

Mr J.I. Waghorn

Mr S. Walmsley

Mr M.H. Welsh
also director of:
Also a Director of
BP LPG UK LIMITED
BP OIL UK LIMITED

From this, I think it is pretty clear where the strength and power of UKLPG lies and exactly which suppliers will be top of their list of priorities when developing policy.

My expectation would be that any engagement with HSE would be most likely (in general terms) to go one of two ways. Either:

1. The HSE will encourage UKLPG to make the Codes of Practice more "absolute", and require both existing and incoming suppliers to ensure that all tanks comply with current codes of conduct, with remedial work quite likely being the responsibility of the customer;
2. They will reach agreement that more or less formalises the "status quo", and allows existing suppliers to "take a view" on installations that they currently supply. This would perhaps have a more formal set of rules, for example: a) that the existing supplier can continue to supply provided that the installation was compliant with the regulations and codes of practice in force at time of installation (unless it is believed that the current installation poses extreme risk to property and/or life); b) On transfer, the new supplier must ensure and confirm that all installations are compliant to current codes of practice at the time that supply commences .

Clearly, option 1. would not be the preferred option of UKLPG as it would inevitably drive a significant number of consumers away from LPG altogether. So my call is that we can probably expect something more in line with option 2. The practical upshot of which would be that we would have (in effect) exactly the same situation as we have at present, but instead of the vague suggestions proposed by the OFT, there would be a "set of rules" laid down to formalise things.

Mbday

Received a reply from Charles Hendry's department regarding my elderly neighbour. As part of the response, here is what they say about the regulations on tank siting:

"There is no specific health and safety legislation that applies to the position of tanks on domestic premises (in contrast to Health and Safety Executive (HSE) regulations for commercial premises).! The LPG industry work to their own standards (UKLPG 'CoP 1') for domestic premises that have been around for many years."

After considerable toing and froing in recent weeks, my neighbour and I have a meeting with engineers from Flogas this week to discuss her new tank siting. I am hopeful that they will be able to do something, although they will want her to sign a new contract with them. I am negotiating on that and have told them she cannot sign a two year contract which allows for completely uncapped price increases. Watch this space......

frozen_wastes

Evening all,

Last month I've reached the end of my 2 year contract with Calor. They've invited me to renew the 2 year deal. Basic terms outlined:
51.9ppl+VAT
24.57ppd standing charge (underground tank).
Looks like the standard T's and C's have been changed a little, allowing them to hike prices by a max of 3.5ppl / 3 months instead of every 6 months.

My 2000 litre tank is 48% full (last topped up in March), so I guess I can bide my time. Though they reserve right to change the price if I don't reply within 30 days.

I don't know whether region affects the prices of LPG, but I live in Aberdeenshire, 30miles drive from Aberdeen. Looks like I'm offered a little over the odds for the market price on this forum.

So where to go from here? I've got Calor and Flogas to choose from + noticed an LPG supplier called "Gaulds Gas" in nearby Inverurie. Would calor be up for any re-negotiation on the price, or is shopping around the only way to get a better price? Or is 51.9ppl a fair deal for where I live?:rotfl:

LittleVermin

frozen_wastes wrote: »

Evening all,

Last month I've reached the end of my 2 year contract with Calor. They've invited me to renew the 2 year deal. Basic terms outlined:
51.9ppl+VAT
24.57ppd standing charge (underground tank).
Looks like the standard T's and C's have been changed a little, allowing them to hike prices by a max of 3.5ppl / 3 months instead of every 6 months.

My 2000 litre tank is 48% full (last topped up in March), so I guess I can bide my time. Though they reserve right to change the price if I don't reply within 30 days.

I don't know whether region affects the prices of LPG, but I live in Aberdeenshire, ......

So where to go from here? I've got Calor and Flogas to choose from + noticed an LPG supplier called "Gaulds Gas" in nearby Inverurie. Would calor be up for any re-negotiation on the price, or is shopping around the only way to get a better price? Or is 51.9ppl a fair deal for where I live?:rotfl:

Hi frozen_wastes! Brrrrrrrrrr - with a username like that, and your location, you don't want to run your tank dry!

Thanks for telling us what Calor offered you. Have you put your postcode in the uklpg supplier search: I think you may find other possibilities (and of course you might get a better deal by joining a farmers' co-op - no need to be a farmer, usually!). I put an Inverurie postcode into UKLPG and got Calor, Flogas, BP and Shell (that'll be Avanti now). And also Extra Fuel (based in Manchester so they'll subcontract deliveries) who have a monthly price depending on what they can buy in bulk for (December's price is 47.22ppl). And also local firms Gaulds, Gleaner and J Gas (Johnston). Some companies won't deliver to underground tanks. (correction: Some companies will not take over other companies' underground tanks, according to posts on this forum).

Location? There's more LPG in tank-farms up your way than in many parts of the UK. Down here in Cornwall nearly all the suppliers fill up from each others depots. So no reason your price should be higher - you're mainland, after all, even if frozen wastes!

Calor changing from max 3.5ppl rise in 6 months to 3.5ppl in 3 months looks a major change to me - especially as none of the majors are too keen to drop their prices when the wholesale price drops!

If I was in your shoes, I'd ring all the suppliers, tell them you've got an underground tank, tell them roughly how much you use and ask for a quote (subject to inspection, of course). Under the Competition Commission terms they have to give a quote over the phone (subject to inspection). Make sure you also get told how much tank rental would be, and maximum rate of rise. Then start haggling! (I would expect Calor would be surprised if you accepted their initial offer - with its generous contribution to their bottom line).

You'll find comments about Johnston on the forum. And Extra Fuel (or Extra Gas).

Please post the quotes - and what you finally go for.

Good luck!

PS What was the price you paid Calor in March, please?
..

frozen_wastes

Thanks for the link. Looks like I'll do a little phoning round tomorrow.

I paid 47.9ppl on my last topup in march, then a few weeks later got a letter saying they were hiking the price by 4ppl due to exceptional demand during the previous winter.

I should be getting a wood burning stove very soon, and I upgraded my boiler last september. Part of my ongoing plan to minimise my dependency on lpg. I hope my tank lasts till springtime. (Previously it just about lasted the winter season.

Looking at issues regarding tank siting (considering that appears to be an issue when moving supplier). The edge of the inspection hatch is 3m exactly from my building, with the tank positioned diagonally to the building. So the edge of the tank would be closer. I don't know if this would fall foul of policy requirements for a 3m separation. Seems to be subject to interpretation. When I moved into the house two years ago, the sellers questionaire said the tank is 2 years old. So I'm guessing the tank was sunk in 2006-2007.

In any case, just getting a price from other suppliers means that I have something to haggle to Calor with.

HateLPG

frozen_wastes wrote: »

Thanks for the link. Looks like I'll do a little phoning round tomorrow.

Everything LittleVermin has said is (as usual) spot on. His comments on the price rise clause are especially pertinent: when Calor tried to stitch me up with that same change (craftily changing from 3.5ppl / 6 months to 3.5ppl / 3 months) a few years back, that was a deal-breaker for me and I went elsewhere (even though their initial offer price was competitive). If this is something that they ar etrying to sneakily slip in "under the radar", so to speak, you might want to also point this out to your local MP and the the OFT, who are currently (supposed to be) scrutinising contracts for unfair clauses in precisely this area!

You might also find some helpful hints, tips and links in the post I made back in March on getting the best deal when switching (see http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42455736&postcount=873) You might especially find the Google Earth KML file (available from http://www.lpguser.co.uk/depots.html) useful. Look for any suppliers with a depot within typically about 30-40 miles for your address. If you are lucky, you might find another independent supplier not listed elsewhere.

And thanks for the pricing update - that's always very useful information for fellow LPG [STRIKE]victims[/STRIKE] users!