Attempted forced change of repayment amount

Incisor

Cardew wrote: »

I really don't want to go over old ground.

However you are absolutely right! You can clearly tell them it is too big, you can give them all sorts of reasons(justified or not) why you feel that the rise is not justified.

However, the bottom line is that it is their commercial decision whether they accept your reasons or not.

You have given them the authority to take varying payments from your account by Direct Debit - that is what a DD Debit Authority is - by definition!

If they don't accept your reasons, then you have to cancel your DD or pay the increased sum.

The option you do not have is to refuse to pay the increased DD and remain on the DD payment tariff.

You are just missing this bit, to save you going over old ground again: As soon as you tell them not to take any more than X from your account, even if they have given notice, they cannot take more than X, or you can invoke the DD Guarantee.

SwanJon

Incisor wrote: »

You are just missing this bit, to save you going over old ground again: As soon as you tell them not to take any more than X from your account, even if they have given notice, they cannot take more than X, or you can invoke the DD Guarantee.

OK. You have instructed them not to take a DD above £x, but they say you need to pay £x+y to stay on the plan.
You reiterate that you are not allowing them to take more than £x. They say ok, you can pay quarterly and lose your significant DD discount. Any outstanding balance is now due, would you like to pay that by debit card?.

So yes you can tell them not to take more than you authorise, but you cannot inisit they continue to give you a discount if you are not sticking to the terms of the payment arrangement (which is sperate to the terms of the DD).

As such the customer's options are
Let them take the DD amount they have calculated (you may have negotiated here)
Cancel your DD and pay quarterly.

Yes, if you feel that their calculations for the coming year are inaccurate you can get them to recalculate it with an up to date reading, but they will continue to base it mainly on your previous consumption so it may take a while (and a few reads).

Incisor

SwanJon wrote: »

OK. You have instructed them not to take a DD above £x, but they say you need to pay £x+y to stay on the plan.
You reiterate that you are not allowing them to take more than £x. They say ok, you can pay quarterly and lose your significant DD discount. Any outstanding balance is now due, would you like to pay that by debit card?.

So yes you can tell them not to take more than you authorise, but you cannot inisit they continue to give you a discount if you are not sticking to the terms of the payment arrangement (which is sperate to the terms of the DD).

Exactly. At last, someone gets it.

As such the customer's options are
Let them take the DD amount they have calculated (you may have negotiated here)
Cancel your DD and pay quarterly.

Yes, if you feel that their calculations for the coming year are inaccurate you can get them to recalculate it with an up to date reading, but they will continue to base it mainly on your previous consumption so it may take a while (and a few reads).

This is all outwith the scope of the arrangements for DD. It relates to the energy contract. Even here, if you have been permitted DD for a certain amount on arrears, the discount against arrears should be maintained, provided you are prepared to continue payment of those arrears by DD.

SwanJon

Incisor wrote: »

Even here, if you have been permitted DD for a certain amount on arrears, the discount against arrears should be maintained, provided you are prepared to continue payment of those arrears by DD.

Not how it will work. The payment arrangement (and hence the DD payments) are for both consumption and arrears. If you break the arrangement you need to pay the balance - you cannot continue to pay it by DD if you are not agreeing to pay for ongoing consumption by DD.
You don't get a discount on an outstanding balance by paying by DD, only ongoing consumption. (i.e. if I had a debt of £120 I would pay £10 a month extra for 12 months for the balance = £120, not £9 extra a month = £108 if there was a 10% DD discount)

Cardew

Incisor wrote: »

You are just missing this bit, to save you going over old ground again: As soon as you tell them not to take any more than X from your account, even if they have given notice, they cannot take more than X, or you can invoke the DD Guarantee.

I really am not missing anything at all.

When I came here 20 years ago, I elected to pay by DD and agreed that they could take varying amounts from my bank.

Under the terms of the DD guarantee they agreed to notify me of any increase.

I think 20 years ago I was paying approx £50 by DD. By your reasoning, unless I have misunderstood you, each time they notified me of an increase I could 'tell them' that my DD was to remain at £50 and so 20 years on I would still be paying £50.

If I refuse to let them increase my DD, I will have broken the agreement I made to allow them to take varying amounts and they will remove me from the DD tariff.

Monkey1984

Incisor wrote: »

You are just missing this bit, to save you going over old ground again: As soon as you tell them not to take any more than X from your account, even if they have given notice, they cannot take more than X, or you can invoke the DD Guarantee.

So what would happen when your telling the company that you want to pay x amount and they turn around and say that they will just remove you from the DD scheme?

I know how there DDs are worked out and in 95% of cases its pretty much spot on.

The DDs are worked out on your previous years kWh usage calculated at current prices with any outstanding balance spread over 3,6,9,12 months.

If its a massive jump in what your paying to what they suggest its more then likely your in debt with them.

What strikes me is the OP was complaining the DD had gone up, wanted compensation, was stating the usage would be lower this year and was posting on here for 3 pages before actually calling the supplier. Even then stating they used a freephone number to stop the company gaining profit from this as well, and then saying its there fault your DD couldn't be changed in time - Well if you called them when you got the letter that wouldn't have been the case.

Fuel Suppliers cannot win either way - The DD doesn't change and people complain that there DD was left to long before reviewing, they increase it and people complain its to high - Lets be realistic here for a minute they don't go about increasing DDs just because they need your money - I don't think they want to be holding onto peoples money - afterall there not banks but they are basing any DDs on your previous usage and if you were using more last year and think your going to be using less this year then they won't change it until they can actually see the usage coming down.

You can moan all you like but at the end of the day they could put your payments down, you would think you have one over on the big bad company and 6 months later when you have a debt you will then blame them saying its there fault for not increasing the payments.

Vicious Circle.

Incisor

Monkey1984 wrote: »

So what would happen when your telling the company that you want to pay x amount and they turn around and say that they will just remove you from the DD scheme?

That can happen. I am still insistent that they cannot help themselves to whatever they want from your bank account just by sending you a notice. I am also insistent that if terms have been agreed for arrears and the customer remains willing to settle these by DD, then the DD discount should apply to the arrears.

Joyful

Incisor wrote: »

That can happen. I am still insistent that they cannot help themselves to whatever they want from your bank account just by sending you a notice. I am also insistent that if terms have been agreed for arrears and the customer remains willing to settle these by DD, then the DD discount should apply to the arrears.

You are wrong. The discount never has and never will apply to arrears. Why should they?

Banks need to be given time to correct a DD. If the companies refuse to change it they will advise you to cancel at YOUR end also. This stops the payment coming out. This means YOU have control. If you choose not to then they have acted correctly in advising the amount of payment that needs to be made and giving you the correct timescale to object. Of course as people have already said you would then lose any discounts.

Incisor

Joyful wrote: »

You are wrong. The discount never has and never will apply to arrears. Why should they?

You are more wrong than me. Ner ner.

If the amount arose out of a DD which was set too low the DD discount will apply and should remain. The discount applies to the arrears, always did and still does, unless the customer cancels the DD. This is a reason why the advice about cancelling the DD in these circumstances as given here by some is so bad. If the supplier cancels it, then the customer can retain the DD discount on amounts outstanding, whereas if the customer cancels, the supplier can rescind the DD discount.

Monkey1984

Incisor wrote: »

You are more wrong than me. Ner ner.

If the amount arose out of a DD which was set too low the DD discount will apply and should remain. The discount applies to the arrears, always did and still does, unless the customer cancels the DD. This is a reason why the advice about cancelling the DD in these circumstances as given here by some is so bad. If the supplier cancels it, then the customer can retain the DD discount on amounts outstanding, whereas if the customer cancels, the supplier can rescind the DD discount.

The DD discount is applied whilst you pay by DD. If the supplier cancels it your discount would stop from the day its cancelled. They do not revoke your past discount that is the same as if you cancelled it from your end.

I don't know who has been supplying your gas / electric but you have some very strange ideas about the ways DD works.

And your discount is applied on the Energy you use either via your unit rate you pay or by the discount applied on your qtr'ly statements.

A DD is not a god given right and its the preferred choice for people as its simple and they can make monthly payments towards bills - However don't think for one moment that a supplier will continue to allow payments at a rate which doesn't cover for your usage. If you guys are really that paranoid about payments just setup a qtr'ly direct debit instead. Some suppliers have a discount for paying your bill within 14 days.

That way you don't lose out by not paying by DD.